New Mac Pro - 2018?

Discussion in 'Apple Desktop Hardware/Software' started by elvis, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. chip

    chip Member

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    We were dealing directly with Apple, but for outright purchase. For comparable hardware specs the Mac laptops were >15% more expensive, not including the cost of the extra peripherals. And yes, you're right, the possibility of a large mac fleet being cheaper to acquire and operate (excluding IT staffing costs) does sound insane. It runs contrary to my couple of decades experience wrangling client devices in substantial orgs.

    Are you in sales?
     
  2. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    So, essentially, what's going on here is people are using overpriced, difficult to repair, under powered and impossible to upgrade Mac's because Windows 10 is simply so bad.

    Such statistics really aren't highlighting MacOS and related devices in a positive light, they're highlighting the extremely sad state of modern computing overall as a result of the fact that Windows 10 sucks, because honestly - You'd be better off running Linux as opposed to MacOS as finder and file system/networking performance simply sucks under MacOS.

    I class laptops in the same category as desktops when the laptops are running essentially the same hardware/desktop OS.

    I also fail to see how statistics related to IBM can cover all other ASX20 companies considering the variances in infrastructure, not all companies are going to support CYOD as there are a number of negatives to such an arrangement. This sounds like sales propaganda to me.
     
  3. [KEi]SoVeReIgN

    [KEi]SoVeReIgN Member

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    Yeah and that's a typical comparison, Apple historically haven't seemed to discount significantly even direct from anything I've seen. But if you adjust the model on lease where Apple are backing a 30-40% residual after 2 years (Made up by me, but in the ballpark) and wintel vendors typically offer significantly closer to 0% in their lease calcs, suddenly that 15% difference is turned upside down. There are of course other factors too (mostly positive towards Apple) but I've seen complete TCO models done lately that are pretty mind blowing.

    I'm more engineering than sales, but I'm across the nitty gritty - PM me if you want me to put you in contact with someone who can go into real detail.

    Rant aside, enterprises don't typically factor in how difficult to repair a device is when modelling TCO and making decisions like this - They model what it costs to have device repaired to an acceptable SLA, or potentially the failure rate in the field - Both of which are very interesting discussions in the context of Apple devices.

    I'm certainly not suggesting Macs are chosen because Windows 10 is 'so bad', although Windows 10 may be a factor as far as it requires major business transformation for adoption, and so does MacOS. If you're doing one, why not the other? (And arguably, the tools and processes to support Windows 10 align more with MacOS than ever before)

    I didn't say all ASX20 companies are going CYOD - Just that I know a handful that are, and I would probably predict that trend continuing. Happy to discuss negatives, what have you got? (Not being sarcastic, I'm actually really keen to hear what the potential negatives of CYOD are, I'm honestly struggling to come up any serious deal breakers in 2019)
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  4. chip

    chip Member

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    Cheers for the offer, although I'm running out the clock until my sweet, sweet redundancy begins next Monday. Plus my soon to be ex-employer isn't likely to being leasing instead of buying at this stage.
     
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  5. OP
    OP
    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    When you said "enterprise CYOD", that's what I expected. And that's fine - it's exactly what I'd offer enterprise staff in 2019 too, because it makes sense for a bunch of valid business reasons.

    But, (and I implore you to look beyond our spat earlier today, for which I apologise for my obvious poking), I do want to keep this thread on topic with the Mac Pro. Yes, I know it's exciting that enterprise offers something outside of boring Wintel (trust me - that matters a lot to me personally). And I know that seeing a fundamental shift in stale corporate thinking is always worth celebrating (because it's so rare). And I also do get excited by mobile computing (although for me that stops at phones, mostly because I'm professionally interested in people who make data, not people who consume data, and a phone is designed for the latter - again, that doesn't make them invalid or unimportant, merely outside of the scope of things I care about personally).

    But, there are dozens of threads in here on MacBooks and iMacs, and there's a whole sub-forum for iOS devices and another for enterprise computing. I would genuinely like to have just one thread dedicated to the Mac Pro, specific to Apple's workstation-class product.

    You've said before that it's "niche", and I'm "in a bubble". And that's fine. I think a single thread in amongst dozens of others is a fair representation for the few of us who care about workstation class machines in 2019. And I'd love to keep it on topic to that machine class.

    Given your ties to business and enterprise Apple deployments, I'm still very interested in your personal opinion on the matter of high end workstation class machines. I only ask that you keep it on the thread topic, and migrate the laptop, desktop and phone discussion to relevant threads. In return, I'll promise to do my best to limit my outbursts clearly and specifically to workstation class machines, and not sweep up the rest of Apple's wide product range.

    Fair trade?
     
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  6. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    Well, considering Windows is the most logical enterprise desktop OS and MacOS is the most illogical enterprise desktop OS, I don't think you need to state anything - The one and only reason you'd run MacOS and it's associated and limited hardware is quite simply because Windows 10 is so bad.

    You'd most definitely never do it because MacOS and it's associated hardware is so good.
     
  7. [KEi]SoVeReIgN

    [KEi]SoVeReIgN Member

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    Absolutely - I only jumped on this thread because of the comments made that suggested the state of the Mac Pro is illustrative of Apple's complete ecosystem failure in enterprise, which couldn't be further from the truth.
    With that aside I agree Apple have completely dropped the ball for their old high end Pro creative users in enterprise. In a previous life I designed and deployed G5 and MacPro edit suites / sound studios for production houses and ad agencies, with associated SANs etc. Apple have lost that niche market and it's not coming back, nor do they seem interested in it. I suppose it's because they can sell 100,000 MacBook Pros to IBM instead of 500 Mac Pros to IBM's media agency and partners.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  8. [KEi]SoVeReIgN

    [KEi]SoVeReIgN Member

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    It might sound like I'm being argumentative but I love this discussion, so don't take these posts the wrong way.

    I'd argue Windows 10 is not bad at all, but that's a personal opinion.
    What you've stated right there is the exact reason these companies are exploring CYOD! Because you think MacOS is illogical, you should absolutely be given a Windows device - You will be happier, more engaged and more productive. Someone who thinks Windows is illogical should be given a MacOS device, because they'll be happier, more engaged and more productive.

    Statistics I've seen say 70% of university students coming out of uni prefer MacOS as a platform - HR departments are cottoning on to this being an important factor in what they're given when they take their first job in enterprise. Even if 70% is high and that figure is 50% or 30%, CYOD is crucial to engaging and supporting Millennials in 2019's war for talent. (But count the Macs in basically any University lecture hall - I don't think 70% is outrageous)

    It's just one of the many factors why CYOD is advantageous - What else have you got?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  9. OP
    OP
    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    The same edit and sound suites are being set up all over the country today, and many (I'd guestimate 60-70%, talking to a dozen or more folks around the country at different tech and production houses who do that) are still rolling out Mac Pros. The huge issue is that those Mac Pros are very, very old, and even with whatever third party upgrades we can squeeze into them, are creaking and groaning under the workloads. So much so that iMac Pros and even Mac Minis are popping up everywhere now (which themselves aren't actually good enough for the specific workloads either, but are better than an ancient Mac Pro for certain things). A few places are just jumping ship to Windows on nice big fat and grunty HPE workstations, but for many it's established third party software and workflows that hold them back.

    And I 100% agree that Apple don't seem interested in changing anything around their high end workstation offering. As I've said many times, my confusion comes from the words written by Apple's Senior Vice President of Worldwide Marketing who said that Apple *are* interested. Given Apple's tight control of formal and official output, it makes no sense for him to put that in writing. For all their sins, and for all the things I disagree with when it comes to Apple, in the last 20 years I've not seen them make a statement about a product line that they didn't follow through on.

    Yes, they typically just ignore a discontinued product and let it die (Shake, for example, where Apple's silence was deafening - the citation for the product discontinuation on Wikipedia points to a Macrumors article!). But they're not really doing that here. They've announced new things are coming, and that they do apparently care, and that came from a guy who's high up and hasn't been fired for saying so (which I assume would happen if he was lying and going against the company's intention).

    Perhaps I'm not being patient enough. Perhaps something truly excellent is around the corner. I genuinely hope I'm wrong with my assumption that Apple don't give a shit. But right now, it sucks to be yelled at by high ranking people, demanding better performance of a very specific brand, only to have absolutely nothing to offer them, which they don't appreciate nor understand.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  10. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    What you've just stated is 'all' personal opinion.

    The biggest argument related to the resistance of many to switch to the Linux desktop is a lack of familiarity, and here you are stating that a lack of familiarity improves productivity. What I believe is a more logical conclusion is the fact that Windows is not only a cesspool of virus's, malware, trojans, PUP's and cryptolockers - But the overall UI is a mess and the updating system sucks, having said that the updating system of MacOS isn't much better. I believe that what you are implying in relation to CYOD is the same reason people are flocking from desktop to mobile devices, and that is the simple fact that people have no trust in Windows as an operating system anymore. This also seems to fall in line with the official public release date of Windows 10 and the data shown by the graphs provided.

    Having said that, being an 'Apple Insider' article, it is, as always, fairly biased towards Apple and 75% of people are still using Microsoft based products.

    What your statistics should state is that 70% of students coming out of uni prefer anything but Windows, which is now possible as millennial's aren't like generation X before them who can only seem to navigate Microsoft products. Millennial's understand and realize the potential of the cloud.

    There's evidence that Windows 10, despite being given away for free, has had lackluster adoption. With the killing off of Windows 7, people are going to be looking for alternate platforms - That may, or may not, be Apple based. I doubt it will be Apple based as their desktop line is pretty sad. They need a real Mac Pro workstation replacement - That, of course, is unlikely to happen without some form of limitations and it's going to be cost prohibitive.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  11. [KEi]SoVeReIgN

    [KEi]SoVeReIgN Member

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    There's so much to unpack here.. but I'll have a crack.


    Incorrect - I'm telling you what I've seen happening and backing it with somewhat relevant statistics. Show me otherwise if you think it's incorrect

    That's literally the opposite of my point - I'm saying familiarity improves productivity, so give people the choice of using the platform they're familiar with.

    I don't think this is a major factor for 'normal' people, who make up the majority of consumer purchases
    I also don't think this is a factor for enterprise purchases for most places, but that is changing. I have been told directly by a senior security analyst who makes EUC decisions at a large enterprise that they consider the Mac the more secure platform, but they are an outlier at the moment.

    Maybe, but that is not the driver in my experience.

    There are tonnes of other articles on the topic - It was just the first result on google. Here's one by SMH. We don't have current numbers but extrapolate out their deployment rate from what they have shared and you'll see 75% is incorrect.

    You can draw any conclusion you like, but that's speculation. I said 70% prefer MacOS that's all. For all we know of that 30%, 29% prefer Linux and 1% Windows.
    Windows is pervasive and will continue to be for a very, very long time - "Realising the potential of the cloud" in large part = Microsoft regardless, so Microsoft are not struggling - But that's sort of beside the point

    Share the evidence, and don't insinuate the cause without backing it up. I'd argue for the vast majority of people in consumer land that they haven't adopted newer versions of Windows because the transition is too hard or they dont understand it, not because they hate the Windows platform.

    Professional Windows users in the creative industry unhappy with Windows10 hoping Apple will release a Pro grade workstation must be such an unbelievably small number of people I'm not sure its even worth talking about.

    Basically I don't think Apple's recent success is because everyone hates Windows 10. Windows 10 is going to be the dominant platform in enterprise for a very long time yet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  12. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    Except I'm not discussing the statistics or what you've witnessed happening, I'm questioning your reasoning as it's perfectly illogical. Stating that productivity improves with a lack of familiarization means Linux will be the desktop of choice tomorrow as it runs on more hardware and more capable hardware than MacOS. It has a better updating system, in my opinion every distro has a better UI (Perhaps not Gnome) and it's overall performance, networking and file system support is better than MacOS - It even has better driver support in many cases (Nvidia) and default file managers that walk all over Finder.

    My experience states the opposite, people are sick of Windows with all it's issues and it's driving the masses away from desktop computing in droves.

    How can 75% be incorrect when the original article, the one I'm quoting, states:

    Obviously the other 75% is anything but MacOS.

    I don't agree with the statement that they prefer MacOS. My experience is that they prefer anything but Windows but they are frustrated by the lack of upgradeability and the storage/performance limitations of Macbooks as well as the mistake that is Finder.

    Hang on, you're asking me to prove an 'opinion' - Obviously knowing damn well this isn't possible. Furthermore, you're asking me to disprove what is essentially 'your opinion'. See my first point regarding your reasoning, this is essentially no different.

    One thing I can state, is that the concept that productivity improves as a result of less familiarization is so far fetched it's almost moot, especially when common logic states the polar opposite. [EDIT] For all we know, IBM could use one particular package that is better supported under MacOS, hence the results seen that only seem to relate to IBM.

    Because Windows 10 is on the device when you buy it and the devices are affordable. This is the only reason why Windows 10 will continue to dominate, not because it's necessarily a 'good operating system'.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  13. [KEi]SoVeReIgN

    [KEi]SoVeReIgN Member

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    I don’t think we’re understanding each other here, I’m going to let this argument go.
     
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  14. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    You're trying to claim that MacOS desktops are a growing market due to ASX20 adoption of CYOD. Originally you claimed "Apple's Mac growth in enterprise at the moment is astronomical" due to the fact that "CYOD is going mental at the moment in enterprise" only to claim later on in the discussion that "I didn't say all ASX20 companies are going CYOD - Just that I know a handful that are".

    Furthermore you're claiming that the bulk of CYOD adoption in relation to ASX20 companies is trending towards Apple desktop products due solely to statistics released by IBM and IBM alone - To which I stated that for all we know IBM may be using a package that actually runs better on Apple hardware and many are flocking from desktop to mobile as a result of loosing trust in Microsoft, specifically their Windows product. There's nothing to state this is not the case in this scenario as Windows does have a number of issues at the moment that Microsoft are not interested in resolving.

    The fact is that look as I may, no stat counters are highlighting this significant growth in MacOS that you're describing - All they highlight is that MacOS is the same, basically flat line it's always been. Therefore there appears to be an 'assumption' that CYOD is this awesome idea that's going to revive the dying Apple desktop market overnight because 'CYOD'?! All based around figures that only you're privy to?

    And to claim that a lack of familiarity brings with it an increase in productivity?

    Personally, I don't see an issue with 'understanding' as such, I simply see an over reaction to a trend within IBM that doesn't really stand to critical reasoning based on CYOD alone when the devices are more expensive, not terribly well built, not terribly well specified, difficult to repair (a factor considering CYOD - A device you pay for) and totally unable to be upgraded using an OS that many find isn't terribly intuitive.

    Perhaps it's the fact that MacOS has a real terminal? But, then again, Windows 10 has WSL and Linux is free.
     
  15. Hater

    Hater Member

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    Y'all are talking as if the average millennial knows how to use their laptop, regardless of OS. Yeah, there's a few McNerds like us out there, but 99.9% of them DGAF, if it boots up and hasn't been pwned in the last few years it's fine.

    As if any of them even know that the terminal/WSL exists. Hell, my sister is a doctorate holder (medicine, not some dumb degree) and her system tray is full of "?"'s from applications she deleted from previous installs of MacOS from 3 laptops ago, those ?'s migrated from laptop to laptop to laptop.
     
  16. [KEi]SoVeReIgN

    [KEi]SoVeReIgN Member

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    I stand by all my statements. MacOS is doing astronomically well in enterprise, a handful of ASX that I know of are starting/doing CYOD and I’m sure there are plenty more I don’t know of. I’m not sure why you think I’m being ambiguous about it ?

    IBM is just one example. There are plenty of huge companies that have publicly stated they’ve shifted to MacOS with CYOD, SAP, GE, CapitolOne - Along with all the usual suspects like Atlassian/Google/Facebook etc. I’m using US examples because I can’t personally reference Australian at the moment.

    On IBMs suitability - I know their circumstances very very well, and no they absolutely do not have a killer app that runs better on Mac, and certainly not when they started their transition (Have you ever used Lotus/IBM Notes... on Mac??)
    However they do have other factors that might make them more and less suitable for a Mac deployment, but really it all comes out in the wash.

    You’re living on another planet if you think regular humans care about terminal.
     
  17. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    In some situations terminal is necessary, especially in software development. You have to remember, nothing here states what sectors within IBM these devices are apparently being used.

    Interesting comment against the Mac however, as doing anything beyond the basics involves the use of terminal using literally identical commands to Linux. Furthermore, I believe Google have a significant Linux user base.
     
  18. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    And for this reason I find it unlikely they're going to go and spend between $2500 - $4000 on a Mac Pro simply to use it at work and the low end Macbook Air is just too limiting with it's 128GB of storage.
     
  19. Perko

    Perko Member

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    And there's nothing in between amirite?
    Why do you have to foul up every thread with your "I use the terminal" humble brag and constant de-railing?

    The number of people on this forum who regularly use a CLI would be relatively high, and it would still be low. The general population is close to zero these days, a rounding error.
     
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  20. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    I did in fact state a range, it's right there in your quote and the use of terminal is necessary under the operating system hailed as being 'simple for the layman'. Furthermore, jugding by the blind fear of terminal on these very forums and the operating systems that make use of it, I think it would be safe to claim that the use of 'CLI' isn't as popular on these forums as one may assume.

    Try not to think of me as an advocate of terminal, both terminal and GUI have their merits and I am by no means one of these people the believe it should be terminal or bust. But this belief that terminal isn't necessary under MacOS is flat out bullshit, coming from an individual that owns two Macs.
     

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