New Mac Pro - 2018?

Discussion in 'Apple Desktop Hardware/Software' started by elvis, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. OP
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    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I'd say this, along with heat and cost (yeah, ironic I know, but honestly an Apple branded OLED would bump this another $3K minimum. Who am I kidding, double that. ).

    My issue is not the monitor itself per se. My issue is Apple shooting off their mouths that this can hold a candle to reference monitors. If Apple merely marketed this as an above average desktop display, then cool (well, kinda, it's still stupid expensive for what it is). But suggesting it's good enough for something like reference or grading is bananas.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  2. millsy

    millsy Member

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    One thing I'm interested to see is how this will impact laptops of theirs in the future.
     
  3. OP
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    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Laptops are super tricky because of power and heat requirements. There's a handful of OLED laptops on the market, but they all generally exist at the "onset colour professional" level, and typically are big chunky things that are designed as portable workstation replacements, not true mobile computing. i.e.: nobody's bashing out a quick Excel spreadsheet on the train on one of those.

    Even local lighting to the levels the XDR pro offers requires a tonne of power, and produces a tonne of heat. Nits don't come for free.

    I have no doubt in my mind that workstation sales worldwide will continue to drop as years go on, which in turn will absolutely push prices up. But the great downside of that is anyone who genuinely needs high performance workstations and capable displays is going to be in a shitty position soon.

    Unless there's some mind blowing tech that appears in the next decade that allows far greater efficiencies in peak brightness generation without the heat and power limitations of *all* current technology, the mobile offerings of any vendor just won't get there.

    And of course, with all that said, we are talking the high end of the market here. Someone cutting videos for YouTube can do so on literally any old crap. Asking YouTubers for advice on professional monitors is pointless, when 8 year olds are becoming millionaires for shitty channels. That market isn't your top end Hollywood, Soho or BBC documentary type setup. And those setups are only a small fraction of the output of content made in the modern age.

    Price's Law is in full effect here. The square root of the population is producing the top 50% of the quality content. And applied again to that 50%, and so on. You end up with only a handful of people making the content that really shows off what a cinema or top-tier home theatre setup can offer. But even then, that doesn't stop home wealthy theatre people bitching that "there's just no content" when they've watched the 10 things out there that offer the colour and luminance quality they want, when everyone else is watching YouTube on their phones and laptops.

    I do wonder what the future will hold for all of this. We had a trend there where everything commoditised, and a laptop became a tool that anyone could use to make very professional stuff. Recent advancements have changed that dramatically (certainly in video, not so much in sound which continues to commoditise further). Again, unless there's some new tech discovery - some new LED that is fast and tiny and almost perfectly efficient and doesn't drift in output wavelength in a short amount of time - I can only see this commoditisation trend reversing, and we go back to people needing a huge dollar investment to get the professional equipment required again.

    Conversely, nobody bothers, and everyone makes shitty, average content forever, and the film industry dies off.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
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  4. Zee

    Zee Member

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    Is it calibrated? In which mode are you running it? Which brand/model, for that matter?

    I've got an LG B9, and once set up, blooming is goon. Setting it to Cinema alone usually does the trick.

    Remember, you buy OLED because awesome blacks, not because super bright.

    Here lies a very interesting point. We're being pushed towards higher and higher resolution displays, when all anyone ever ends up doing is watching YT vids of cats shot in not much better than 480P - usually in portrait to boot.

    I'm part of a few HT specific groups, and it's also interesting how many allegedly 4k BD's are really just upscaled 1080P content - and at times, upscaled 480i content.

    People are so used to consuming content on their phones, and so unwilling to flip them on their sides to get full screen for wide screen content, that portrait is probably the way I should be mounting TV's...

    Z...
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  5. aokman

    aokman Member

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    Its calibrated in SDR but not HDR as it maxes out my spectrometer. Was just a joke haha its more my eyes not the actual display :)
     
  6. Hater

    Hater Member

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    The YouTube conundrum just shows that content is king - People with Logitech webcams saying things in a dimly lit room (moist-critical) getting more views than big huge budget productions like Saturday Night Live when both are covering very similar content really says something.

    The more the Hollywood crew and their social grip on things slips the better we all are.

    As for Apple marketing, I don't see what the big surprise here. This company made everyone think edge-to-edge screens and facial recognition are must-haves, despite being inferior in every damn way to what they had before.

    Great, a phone I can't hold without touching random shit because there's nowhere to hold it by and an unlock mechanism that works 20% of the time compared to previous.

    And of course all other manufacturers had to follow suit as the population fell for these stupid gimmicks.

    Don't even start me on the headphone jack thing.

    Yes, the XDR comparison to Sony Reference displays was a stupid one, but making stupid claims seems to have worked for them many times before.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  7. millsy

    millsy Member

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    > fully colour calibrated workflow
    > super high end cameras
    > great production
    > amazing audio
    > watched at 480p on free earbuds because the mobile network is slow on the train and good headphones "are like, super expensive"

    Viva la future
     
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  8. OP
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    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Well it didn't surprise any of us. Nor did the negative reaction to the objective data from the fan base surprise me.
     
  9. Hater

    Hater Member

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    I took that as indicating surprise.
     
  10. OP
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    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Oh no, I fully expected Apple to be totally bananas. Zero surprises there.
     
  11. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    C'mon mate, you have to admit, you've gulped down a little too much of the Apple marketing Kool Aid. Which isn't your fault, that's the intention of their marketing team.
     
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  12. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    When 1080p upscales so well to 4k I'm sure they feel they can get away with it for minimal cost.
     
  13. chip

    chip Member

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    Your repeated invocation of this dubious piece of scientometrics is baffling. Price's "law" doesn't even have good empirical support in it's the field it's actually meant to be about (see this), but that doesn't stop everyone on the internet using it to justify all sort of tenuous crap.

    The guy who came up with it had an even worse obsession than Galton with finding a magical way of ranking everything.
     
  14. mesaoz

    mesaoz Member

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    It's worse than that, there is apparently often no 4k master to make the 4k-bd out of even if they wanted to, way I heard it is that a huge number of big films are produced on a 1080p workflow as soon as they reach the cutting room floor all the way through vfx and out the other end.

    Shooting in larger resolutions seems to only be so they can crop without losing fidelity.

    edit: you can check the master specs on IMDB

    endgame for example
    Cinematographic Process ARRIRAW (6.5K) (source format)
    Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)

    1917 for example
    Cinematographic Process ARRIRAW (4.5K) (source format)
    Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)

    Joker
    Cinematographic Process ARRIRAW (6.5K) (source format)
    Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)

    Midway
    Cinematographic Process DXL RAW (8K) (source format)
    Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)

    The Irishman
    Cinematographic Process ARRIRAW (3.4K) (source format)
    Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  15. OP
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    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Correct. Because the studios go to the VFX houses and ask them to do it in 4K, and the VFX houses give them a dollar figure (and nobody in VFX is making millions here - at least a dozen places go broke every year, in fact). The studios then see the quote, shit their pant, and ask what the cost is for HD/2K instead.

    Everyone forgets that 1080p -> UHD/4K is not double the size, but 4 times. And that's just number of pixels. Factor in extra colour information, HDR metadata, wall time for renders, physical storage on NAS/SAN, doubling all that for DR/BCP, and now everything has to be in stereo as well because theatres still *might* do 3D, and you're realistically looking at a scale of 8-10 times the cost to produce true, end-to-end UHD/4K material compared to HD/2K.

    Who pays that cost? Would you pay 8 times the price for a cinema ticket? How about 8 times the cost for a full "mastered in 4K" BluRay?

    Very true. Neither does Dunning-Krueger. But you can spot both every day, in so many industries, businesses, organisations and institutions. Despite their lack of tested evidence at scale, anyone who spends a few decades witnessing the ineptitude that exists in bounds will attest to both of them explaining a hell of a lot.

    Perhaps renaming it to "Price's observation" would make you happier? I'm not the one who labelled it a "law", and in the same way "Moore's Law" is also not a law, but an observation of patterns that continues to be fairly accurate.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  16. chip

    chip Member

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    Moore's law actually has a better empirical basis than Price's root square thingo. Empirical(ish) studies of price's law tend to show 10-20% of authors having their names show up on 50% of the output*, maybe that would be more transferable to your anecdotal experience?

    *although they're also careful to state that it doesn't appear to be generalisable with any degree of reliability
     
  17. OP
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    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Great name. I'll use that.

    That's pretty much his "thingo" where "10-20%" also happens to be the square root of the population.

    Said "thingo" also tends to map wonderfully to business. Most refer to the 80/20 rule, but what is becoming more obvious in a world of small startups and massive multinationals is that it doesn't remain a constant ratio, instead mapping far better to the thingo in question.
     
  18. OP
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    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Just wanted to come back to this for everyone following along (as I was doing this for another project, but remembered this comment when I hit the specs page).

    Vincent showed in the video his Jeti Spectraval 1511 spectroradiometer that he used to measure the light output. These retail for around USD$9K, give or take.

    A "nit" is the same as a "cd/m^2" ("candela per metre squared"). We use nits for OLED displays mostly because the display is flat, and technically cd/m^2 is measured outward from a point (i.e.: a sphere, or curved CRT screen). But for the sake of digital displays, they are the same unit.

    Here's the Jeti product specs page:
    https://www.jeti.com/cms/index.php/instruments-55/radiometer/spectraval/spectraval-1511

    From that, the device has a luminance measurement range of of 0.2 to 180,000 cd/m^2 (aka nits). These devices are industry-grade devices that are capable of measuring everything from high end dispays to LED lighting solutions.

    This sensor has a upper bounds 112 times higher than the Apple XDR's peak luminance of 1,600 nits. This was the device used to measure the HDR levels, and graph the early rolloff issue. This device absolutely did not suffer from "clipping the sensor".
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
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  19. PsychoSmiley

    PsychoSmiley Member

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    Saw the review vid above of the XDR display outside of OCAU and remembered this thread and wondered if there'd be squabbling....

    OCAU didn't fail to deliver.

    My take as a pleb. It's a very good prosumer screen but it's not a very good reference screen (where perfection matters).
     
  20. OP
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    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Don't forget the AUD$ 8500 buy in price (panel only - +$1500 for no-glare screen, +$350 for VESA mount, +$1700 for the stand, all AU pricing).

    So let's say you go bottom of the line cheap out mode. $8500 smackeroos for just the screen, and you find some el-cheapo third party way to mount the screen.

    What else could $8500 smackeroos get you? I'm sure most OCAUers could envisage some combo of high quality LCD daily driver combined with a high quality consumer OLED for mastering and finals which, together, cost less than just the Apple panel alone.

    Is that good enough for prosumer? Well, to be very blunt, this is exactly how most Australian TV is cut and edited (and quite a few shows around the globe). And while that might not be much of a benchmark for some, if we're going to talk about video professionals who aren't at the "hollywood studio" end of the spectrum, our entire domestic television market (and part of the international TV market) wouldn't be a bad starting point at trying to identify people who are still "pros".

    Now, of course you don't get the "1600 nits @ 6K" marketing bullet point. But if you're genuinely "prosumer", are you shooting on devices that can produce that?

    Again, this is a weird device. Not weird in specs per se. Weird in the fact that it doesn't really seem to have a market. High end, home or prosumer - everyone is better satisfied for the money elsewhere.

    I'm genuinely keen to know how many units are sold. And saying that, I'm 100% sure we'll never find out, because Apple never release stats for poor selling items.
     

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