OLED's OLED's OLED's!

Discussion in 'Audio Visual' started by aokman, Oct 3, 2018.

  1. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Was it the media or the panel?

    Almost everyone produces/distributes H.264 4:2:0 8-bit compressed-to-buggery media these days. Dark scenes look like trash when compressed by algorithms that make assumptions like "you'll never watch media that's all dark scenes".

    S08E03, but yes, what I saw was compressed terribly. I work in a studio that produces content for film and TV (including Stan and Netflix as well as FTA channels), and almost everyone technical and creative alike complained about the compression on that episode.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  2. nico6

    nico6 Member

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    Oops. edited.

    Sounds like it was the compression then (re the banding etc), and glad I was still able to see what was going on (where others couldn't), although no doubt it was made extremely dark for effect.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  3. Luke212

    Luke212 Member

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    finally an example so bad people actually will pay attention, of why all 1080p aint equal.

    and why bluray is 40mb+.

    fuck you streaming services.

    also why is noone using x265 yet? do the tvs not support it?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
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  4. power

    power Member

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    the streams were the issue last night.

    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...-of-thrones-too-dark-or-does-your-screen-suck

     
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  5. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    If you want to test your panel (and you should)

    1) Download the 2GB "mini" test patterns from here:
    https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2943380-hdr10-test-patterns-set.html

    2) Read the manual (link taken from the thread above, but links direct to the PDF), and do sections 3 ("Black clipping") and 5 ("Grayscale")
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1x8K1vHx4AvzkX4dt3fhj3_i_LdG_RA7z

    As I've said before in this thread, luminance issues and black crushing is easiest detected by the human eye. Conversely, the human eye is pretty poor at objectively detecting colour issues, for which proper hardware test devices are recommended instead.
     
  6. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    1) BluRay is still stuck on H.264. So quoting bitrate is a bit silly there, when H.265 offers around half the bitrate for the same subjective quality. That, and bitrate has less to do with subjective quality than you'd think (see (2))

    2) Emphasising different ranges without blowing out file size / bitrate is achievable. It takes time and effort on behalf of the people doing the final compression, however. So it's not a "BluRay vs Streaming" conversation. I've seen streaming stuff that looks amazing, BluRays that look like arse, and vice versa. Likewise, ffmpeg/libx264's H.264 encoder now offers various "tuning" methods (film, grain, animation, etc) that support better looking results for lower bitrates if the subject matter is known and somewhat consistent. Achieving the same for dark media is not much different - it just means changing some assumptions about what information to keep/emphasis, and what to discard/ignore. Also logarithmic vs linear encoding helps there, by assigning more data to the ends of the curves than the middle, so as to not spend too much bitrate on imagery that subjectively doesn't matter.

    3) Netflix is using H.265 right now. The reason it hasn't made it to physical media is that physical players are slower to migrate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  7. MR CHILLED

    MR CHILLED D'oh!

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    Certainly doesn't make you wonder why people download these in order to get that superior quality.
     
  8. Luke212

    Luke212 Member

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    i can theoretically write an AI that would do better compression than h265. But not practically because its hard to simulate 'perception'!
     
  9. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Fuck me gently...

    Compression is *always* a time/rate tradeoff. Anyone can write better compressors for anything, if they don't care about time.

    Why does lrzip produce better compression than vanilla gzip/lzma/lz*? Because it takes 10 times as long as it looks for long-range matches. Why does H.265 produce better compression than H.264? Because it also takes 8-10 times as long as it does smart quantizing.

    Go ahead and write your "AI". Zero people will use it commercially, because I guarantee you it will take forever to encode, and won't be able to decode in real time. And if I'm wrong, you'll be a millionaire overnight (guess why you aren't, genius).
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
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  10. PsychoSmiley

    PsychoSmiley Member

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    My LG B6 supports x265/HEVC. Will play it quite happily off a USB stick.

    I also thought Ultra Blu-Ray dics were x265/HEVC encoded as well?
     
  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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  12. Phido

    Phido Member

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    With 4k the uptake rate is tiny. I thought by now (2020) DVD would be dead, and DVD players would be dead and even low end players would be at least BR. 4K players are still in the $300+ zone (which is a bit much). BR are still in the $100+ zone.. DVD inhabit the $50 zone. So I don't see the uptake quickening any time soon..
    If 4k players were in the $200 range, well

    4k panels are mostly wasted with streaming, IMO, because the bitrate is so low. At the end of the day some images compress better than others, and if you have lots of moving pixels you need that bit rate. I also tend to find better panels (like OLED) you notice the artifacts and flaws more.
     
  13. Luke212

    Luke212 Member

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    actually AI it is faster, and designed for vectorised math... perfect.

    dont discount AI elvis (or is it just me you discount). AI is forever replacing 'experts'.

    as i said, i cant do it because simulating perception is 'hard' (motion/colour perception) so training is 'hard', besides the obvious heuristics such as used for chroma sampling.

    the AI part is the easy bit here.

    sorry enough crapping the oled page. i almost bought one on the weekend!!!!! wife talked me down :(
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  14. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    If there was an award for putting together a collection of words that mean absolutely nothing, you'd be an international champion. We have some notoriously full of shit sales guys who would be envious of your posts.

    I didn't. Don't confuse the technical enthusiast market with the "good enough" market. We're still broadcasting interlaced (and worse, SD interlaced) media here in Australia, and it's being watched happily by millions. There's still a shitload of movies being made in 2K and upscale in 4K at the very end.

    Like everything, media is driven by profit. If a company has to quadruple their storage and compute just to produce media that meets new specs, will they quadruple their profits? In short: hell no. So they don't.

    Yeah, it sucks. But welcome to capitalism and the ignorant market.
     
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  15. nico6

    nico6 Member

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    ...and so I will. Cheers!
     
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  16. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Or more specifically, the encoding of the stream. I still think there's room to improve, even within current H.264 options, even within the bitrate required.

    All of these articles are missing vital parts of how modern video compression works, and the assumptions made about significant visual information.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  17. Phido

    Phido Member

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    I hate SD TV. I makes me feel dirty. I change my viewing habits to watch on HD channels when ever possible. I hate that ABC news is SD.
    I see Samsung is out of the 4k br market. I dunno, this new direction doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

    BR 4K on a OLED good panel is probably going to be the image quality highwater mark for the next few years.

    Not every thing needs to be in 4k, but I kinda figured by now we would be at least 1080p.
     
  18. sTeeLzor

    sTeeLzor Member

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    Looked like shit on mine. I imagine there's only so much you can do with a streamed copy. A bluray probably would have it look far better.
     
  19. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    No probably about it... this is where streaming fails currently.

    Yep, for sure. :)

    JSmith
     
  20. MR CHILLED

    MR CHILLED D'oh!

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    I'm going to do this and the reason being is I also did not shut the blinds so I reckon I missed some detail.
     

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