Path to web design proficiency

Discussion in 'Programming & Software Development' started by zfind, Feb 6, 2008.

  1. prezident doom

    prezident doom Member

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    For the purposes of learning i would go for PHP or ASP (not .net). These are much more standard server scripting languages and will give you a better grasp of the fundamentals. Languages like asp.net are great because they take a lot of the grunt work out of your hands but they do so much for you that your understanding of server scripting will be less complete

    SQL Server and MySQL are the two big ones for general web development
     
  2. Herro

    Herro Member

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    Your arguement is lazy and pathetic buddy, your arguement is not even your own, there are more sites, reviews and articles that give php the upper hand over asp.net than the other way around, but your not going to see me quoting them.

    have a look.

    http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=php+vs+asp.net&meta=

    If you so sure .net is better, and i'm not saying it isnt (I think there are different levels of application for many languages), i'd love to know how much you earn, because i'm a full time developer, mainly postgres/mysql and php, and I'm from an asp/asp.NET background. Myself and another professional opensource web/webblication developer both far outearn any of our freinds in the .net arena, and we are constantly being offered jobs on the side.

    I'm nowhere near as proficient at php as some of my buddies are at asp.net. Difference is, my work on average takes half as long to complete, runs on a platform that in the SME market is 10's of thousands of dollars cheaper to install and maintain. asp.net is a fantastic language, but so is php.

    Open source is where it will be in the next decade, I've completely given up with asp.net and i've never been happer in both my work and my salary.

    I think your issues with php, (not the issues in that article - which arent even yours) are based on the fact that because php is so easy to learn, bad or inexperienced coders are writing a lot of code.

    The other thing is, you oppinion and comparison of asp.net and php is highly flawed. Your comparing user and experience levels, not languages or application. The hobby php users are akin to the same hobby asp users of the last 10 years, not to asp.net. asp.net is a professional language, and visual studio .net is a professional development environment.

    A better comparison would be asp.net/visual studio and php/zend studio with any one of the many IDE's.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2008
  3. sparau

    sparau Member

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    IMO - asp vb sux for anything even slightly complex, generally you end up with a lot of if else blocks and spaghetti and dont mention vb's objects - bleah !!

    i've used perl a fair bit - and love it, so while i havent used php (apart from bug fixing / small extending of functionality other people's sites) i would choose it over asp/vb any day.

    asp.net is great but has a bigger learning curve, its kinda funny how 95% of a page with asp.net comes together easier than any other language then the little bits can stuff you for a while. However apart from a few bits that irritate me (loading order of dynamic controls and viewstate stuff i spose for one) i find it fantastic to use.
     
  4. dljunior

    dljunior Member

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    Wow, Rampant Fanboyism at it's best ;)

    Here's my two cents (I'm still young but do well paid freelance / contract work with Ruby).

    Firstly, this is more to the posters than the OP, stop advocating the language you like is the best - You need to evaluate what you like, what you feel happy working with and most of all, what you know. From my experiences, PHP was "ok" as a way to get started with simple stuff (e.g. a pay with a few dynamic sections etc) and the integration was nice (although bloated) BUT I didn't really enjoy working with it.

    For people using performance as an item, outside of extremely high traffic instances / db heavy etc sites, your going to generally be more focused on other bottlenecks and in most cases your own smart coding will make one of the biggest differences. (Of course, if you're running say a porn site which has to deal with a lot of traffic / processing etc it might be different but for the average person it's not much of a concern).

    I'd suggest learning an open source platform / language if you can - especially if later down the track (esp. considering these are mostly later stage recommendations) you choose to use a framework - it'll make it a lot easier to understand whats going on and why certain decisions were made.

    For instance, using the above criteria, I chose Ruby for my platform of choice. There are concerns about performance in particular but like I mentioned, for most things it's not going to affect me. Also, Like people have mentioned, Rails in the prime choice (mainly due to its accessibility + marketing) but be forewarned there is a reasonably large amount of whats called 'magic' - code that may be hard to grok at first (but, once you've learnt a fair chunk of ruby, it's generally a productive way of doing thing). Also, I like writing in Ruby - The Syntax is lovely, there are many idioms I love using, Writing code that writes code can make some tasks a lot easier and because I usually work either on a small team or by myself, there aren't any big issues. Also, Other frameworks such as Ramaze, Merb and the like offer me choices to do things in different ways whilst Rack (*kind of* like WSGI in the Python world) means I can drop to a non-networking level (e.g. not parsing my own requests etc) whilst still having flexibility with what I do. Oh, and ruby is still a bit of a niche but if you're active in the community, you'll generally have no problems finding a job.

    I'm sure I've forgotten a few things but that'll do for now. And most importantly, enjoy learning web design / development - even if you write some crappy code while your learning, the important thing is you can always learn and improve.

    edit: oh, My suggestions - Learn some SQL (as the basics are standardized and work across different servers), Learn Javascript on the client side (it's whats used to do most fancy in browser stuff and its one of those "ugly at first, cool once looked at in detail" languages and it makes a lot of stuff e.g. AJAX possible) and lastly, choose a web language your happy with like you mentioned - PHP is generally attractive to beginners because its so easy to get started with.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2008
  5. Bradzac

    Bradzac Member

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    Because ASP.NET is not a scipting language. ASP.NET is a web application framework that uses an event driven model, which is a lot different to scriptings procedural style.
     
  6. prezident doom

    prezident doom Member

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    I know what your saying but its irrelevant to the point i was trying to make

    Skills learned in a language like PHP will much more easily transfer into another server side language. ASP.net does things in a very unique way so starting out learning it could make it harder for you to quickly pick up other languages.
     
  7. hyperstyle

    hyperstyle Member

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    Exactly. Which makes this whole argument retarded. PHP supports both procedural and OO style programming. The only thing primitive hanging around php are the programmers/critics who don't know how to use it or what it can do.
     
  8. Nightwatchman

    Nightwatchman Member

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    ASP.net fits into the design world in that it is OO and as web applications become more complex, the best way of maintaining them is to use OO techniques.

    you're going to have to learn how to do OO programming or else you're going to be left behind.
     
  9. Flanamacca

    Flanamacca Member

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    I love reading tales of fanbois who are "doing better than anyone else financially" with their $xk salaries. Especially when the markets fluctuations do not state that x skillset = $x and y skillset = $y.

    To the clown whos been "bragging" about his $70 odd k for a 21 year old junior. There can be many factors in your wage - being a prodigy, working for an extremely generous company, x amount of expected hours, expectation of working on weekends etc. The fact that you flop your choice of technology next to your wage really just denigrates your value to me as a potential employer straight up and says alot about your ego - not to mention your completely limited scope of the choice of technologies and their advantages and disadvantages that they might present your business. The wage alot of people earn - especially in programming - is often proportionate to the level of responsibility and work demands - lower of both is often preferential to a lot of people.

    I could easily flop my salary on this page and either get some wows ooohs or even aahhhs, or maybe even some hahas. And im 22 and have yet to finish uni. Salary is IRRELEVANT when considering technologies, as is age and in some regards even experience. Understanding and business value is all.

    For the OP: There are many reasons why .NET is an excellent platform to learn on - it takes a lot of the pain out of low level tweaking for elements and structures as well as allowing for multiple languages to be built to coexist - believe it or not ive encountered enterprise level software utlising C#, VB.NET and even some java.net... don't ask.. the fact is the power of the platform allowed them to utlise three different language sets to get the job done. .NET has fantastic OO principals in place - and is arguably the BEST language for developing web services which require application layer connectivity.

    However do you how utterly expensive it is to not only setup a .NET server, as well as setting up stuff such as VS.NET ? And i do say VS.NET as it is arguably one of the best IDE's in existance and any .NET developer worth his grain of salt will be developing on it unless he is EXTREMELY confident and is developing using MONO libraries or such. One thing i have against .NET programmers in relation to technologies such as AJAX. By using the .NET libraries alot of them actually have absolutely no idea what they are doing. They are in essence limited to what is referred to as "dumb programming" - High level languages that completely hide the lower level interactions. Its not necessarily a bad thing but it can lead to bad habbits.

    Considering the topic is WEB PROGRAMMING... can our .NET fans please put your hands up and in 5 minutes or less begin scaling a service to meet increased load demand horizontally? Oh wait.. not going to happen.

    Now we have php. A scripting language that has been gaining a LOT of recognition for its enterprise level service lately due to its excellent caching services and the ability of L/WAMP servers to scale horizontally almost instantaneously. Also, its important to mention the speed of development of php applications - low resource and low dependancy development allows for changes to be implemented extremely quickly.

    Additionally, along with the open source movement - php is totally free. No matter how large your php service gets - the only costs you will ever pay are hardware and bandwidth. No software costs for the life of hte product. Relatively strong OO principals have been working their way into version 5 and on and i can only imagine what 6 will bring - things are looking up. PHP is extremely easy to pickup - as in essence its just C. The biggest slapper for php is that it attracts what are referred to script kiddies. They know about echo... and str_replace... and well.. great script son. Nuff said. These programmers are just a lot more prevalent becuase of the easy pickup nature of the langauge as a whole.

    Now PHP is limited by its "script" nature. It is not easy to link php up to internal applications without something along the lines of a SOAP layer or XML. This can require a skillset that not many programmers posses or understand - and can limit the potential of a php service.

    LAMP is extremely popular as you can just pick it up and go - and there are an absolute truckload of tutorials etc that can get you started. Additionally - WAMP has your windows box covered.

    And again since im still slightly giggling at the salary discussions - i turned down a 125k package because the workload would make it impossible for me to finish my degree with a still beating heart. Now - am i offered this salary because of my choice in langauge? (im a php programmer). Because of my age? because of my tech savy? BECAUSE I DON'T JUST THROW STATISTICS UP TO JUSTIFY A LANAGUAGE WITHOUT CONSIDERING WHAT IT CAN OFFER A BUSINESS?

    Mate irrespective of what ive said here today - take a look at asp.net, take a look at php, heck even have a look at ruby (im not a fan personally - too little minutae control) and find a language that your comfortable with. Your control of a language will dictate your career prospects. And you'll change languages probably anyways so it doesnt really matter -just need grounding.

    N/B: Java not mentioned as its a specialised langauge primarily targetted at the enterprise sector and ot the web programming arena.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  10. Bradzac

    Bradzac Member

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    Application layer connectivity? Do you mean interoperability? Do you mean decoupling services? Do you mean reusability? Or do you mean literally, application layer connectivity? Cus that doesn't make sense.

    I could. It has nothing to do with what language you use. It has everything to do with the architecture. Think you can't achieve it with .NET and you are only kidding yourself greatly (or you have a great lack of knowledge of architectural patterns and the framework).

    But now we are just going way off topic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  11. Elyzion

    Elyzion Member

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    *delete*

    Actually forget what i said, i can't be bothered starting an arguement with a no0b.
     
  12. aussie7

    aussie7 Member

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    I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but TAFE has a Cert 4 and diploma in Webdesign, there is also www.w3schools.com to give you some free web tutorials
     
  13. Herro

    Herro Member

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    I actually read what you said, and as much as i disagree with your deep hate of php, I have to agree... its exactly what I thought when i read the post.

    Edit: Sure, learning comes from mistakes, but to tackle large jobs you need to progress from simple tasks to simple integration of simple tasks, then onto integration of simple integrations(mindfuck?) and so-on and so fourth. The other thing that many Novice and/or graduate PHP and .NET developers dont learn is working collaboratively with other coders, graphic designers, database designers and companies.... This is my 5th year working full time, and I'm still daunted with large jobs, fuck the stress level, I just need to make sure I can do it, before I worry about the stress....
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  14. Bradzac

    Bradzac Member

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    Don't feed the trolls ;)
     
  15. hyperstyle

    hyperstyle Member

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    :lol: Watch your step. I think we can classify almost everyone posting in this thread as a troll.
     
  16. Elyzion

    Elyzion Member

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    I've done about 3 and a half years full time now. My first 2 and a half tho was working by myself as a developer, so i had to teach myself a lot of what i know. But i never copy pasted, which i see a lot of people do at my current job. (the one i got when i moved to australia)

    Funny thing about my job is the ONLY reason i got an interview was because my manager looked at my CV and said:

    "Oh wow, hes worked in the porn industry, he must have worked on some big high traffic sites, hes hired, i wonder what else he can do."

    I think some employers hire people for the wrong reasons. I wont explain why, i think Coding Horror sums it up better.

    http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001054.html

    But i agree, theres a lot of things you just don't learn when studying. I doubt anyone would ever walk out of UNI or Tafe into a senior position at 125k a year even if you had been doing free lance for a couple of years. You just don't have that real world experience of a commercial enviroment.

    Man i donno why i typed all that, i just felt like typing. I just spent all day fixing a MAJOR bug on the Auctioning site i just finished building. WOW i got a headache.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  17. Bradzac

    Bradzac Member

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    Nearly every undergraduate you ask these days is walking into a 6 figure job when they leave uni. We normally call them dreamers.

    Secondly, reading his post you can tell he doesn't know what he is talking about. He certainly doesn't come across as one with experience so I could only assume he is a troll.

    Besides, that's nothing, I just declined an offer for 175k/week. I didnt wan't to give up the awesome coffee I get from the coffee shop down the road from the office.
     
  18. Soarer GT

    Soarer GT Member

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    This thread is like masturbating with a cheeze grater. It's mildly amusing but mostly painful.
     
  19. Flanamacca

    Flanamacca Member

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    Well duh it has nothing to do with the language mate. The point i was trying to make is the requirement to replicate environments for .NET in order to scale and the associated time requirements but that was clearly lost.

    Quite frankly anyone who says "x language/architecture is better than y period" needs a serious kick in the scrotum. A lot of languages have pros and cons and they can be utilised to meet a businesses requirements.

    Additionally, comments about undergraduate walking into the 6 figure senior positions - ive been working full time past 6 years whilst doing my degree part time - working in teams ranging from 3-10 to leading teams of 30+ on projects with investments between 100k to 1mil. Now if you look at my degree when i finish i quanitfy as an undergraduate. If you look at my experience im classified as management.

    Bradzac clearly you missed the exact point i was making when i referenced the pay bracket and the associated factors that come in why it might have been that amount. But hey i guess your 1337 h4xor coding skillz are the only factor in your position - so good luck to you.
     
  20. Elyzion

    Elyzion Member

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    So you work for daddy or something huh? Cos all companies hire 16yo's who are still in school before they are studying for any degree.

    When do you study? Night classes? So you failed school now your trying to get your english and math papers so you can prove to the world you can speak english and put 2 numbers together?

    Lol dude, stop talking out your ass. You haven't lead any teams of 30+. If you need 30+ people to get a job done, specially for jobs ranging from 100k to 1mill, then you have a serious problem.
     

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