Perpetual Linux Distro Thread

Discussion in 'Other Operating Systems' started by Geo, Mar 30, 2002.

  1. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I'm probably going to piss a lot of people off when I say this, but this falls under the old problem of "when the only tool you've got is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail".

    Developers develop. It's what they do. When you've got people who only know how to solve problems by creating new code, that's what they do. And sometimes new code is exactly what's needed. But often solutions to old problems are not making new things, but rather reducing the complexity in old things, tweaking old things, cleaning up old things.

    And certainly open source isn't the only culprit here. Plenty of other software producers are guilty of throwing the baby out with the bath water in a bid to shun all that is old and embrace all that is shiny and new. But the point is that folks like my least favourite FLOSS developer Lennart Poettering, and many others too, are great at forgetting why it is we use tools in the way that we do, and enforcing brand new "really cool" ways of doing things without stopping to ponder if "really cool" is actually a thing that enhances functionality or not. And there needs to be real need, not just bored developers avoiding complex problems and instead punching out unnecessary replacements for things that already work well (in some cases, better than the new replacement).

    Specific to snap packages, yes, there are certainly "problems" it "solves". There's also a shitload of problems it introduces - some of them quite severe on performance and security. But if we're ignoring performance and security in lieu of only "the low skilled end user's experience", I'm not sure that's a valid assumption to make across the full gamut of user types.

    But again, the choice is there. I don't have to use Ubuntu, and people who want to are welcome to it. I guess my gripe is that it's yet another example of an OS I was behind for some time, before developers changed it to be unrecognisable from the thing I once loved (macOS shares this for me - brilliant up to and including 10.4, and then key underlying components were changed and broken beyond repair, rendering it useless to me from that point forward).

    Change is the only constant, and I'm OK with that. Leaving Ubuntu behind for something else was bound to happen, just like I used other distros prior to Ubuntu, and left them behind when something better came along. I guess the crying shame here is I'm not leaving Ubuntu because someone made something better, nor because my requirements changed. I'm leaving Ubuntu because Ubuntu got subjectively worse for my individual, unchanged requirements.
     
  2. gdjacobs

    gdjacobs Member

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    No, that jives with my perspective. Trying out new things is great -- we can't really know without testing. However, trying to force a change whose time hasn't come is poisonous. Going back to my analogy, throwing shit at the wall isn't wrong so much as trying to make us eat it. If we're hungry or it looks delicious, we'll help ourselves.
     
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  3. shredder

    shredder Member

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    As a techy desktop user, I've only used Ubuntu exclusively since 16.04. To my limited ignorant-of-what's-under-the-hood perspective, I can foolishly hold up my hand and say "nothing has changed". Everything I did in 2016, I still do the same, with the same outcomes.

    Does, or should, anything from the recent posts mean anything to me? Should I be concerned about something? Starting to be more aware of alternatives?
     
  4. gdjacobs

    gdjacobs Member

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  5. waltermitty

    waltermitty Member

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    I wonder when openbsd's unwind(8) will get ported to linux
     
  6. gdjacobs

    gdjacobs Member

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    I fail to see what's exciting about it, but maybe I'm just a lump.
     
  7. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    This one intrigues me. I've always had people ask me if Linux supports "roaming profiles", to which the correct answer is "roaming profiles are stupid, use an NFS server".

    More or less systemd-homed attempts to bring roaming profiles to Linux. But again, I ask, who exactly asked for this?

    Feels like a solution looking for a problem to me. I mean, what it does is kind of cool. But again, just because something is cool, do we need it?

    Is there anyone out there IRL who would use this feature? I run a combination of large and small Linux sites, including Linux desktops, and I can't see a single one of them requiring this functionality (and not just because they've never had it and don't know what they're missing out on, but because nobody genuinely needs it, as far as I can see).
     
  8. gdjacobs

    gdjacobs Member

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    It's also a solution bearing a problem. From what I've read, homed is intended to unpack on login which immediately brings up questions of how ssh key based authentication would work under home directory encryption. You need to login in order to access your known_hosts file in order to login.
     
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  9. Quadbox

    Quadbox Member

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    Back on the snaps/flatpack/whatever thing, the oft touted killer application is letting non-linux-focussed cross platform and particularly commercial app developers distribute a single file that works on every distro, and multiple people in here have raised exactly that as A Good Thing (TM), and it would be if it were actually the experienced reality

    But...

    As a long time user of a very not redhat or debian based distro, I've got to tell you they're fucking awful to use on gentoo. I've heard before similar from slackware and arch users. So they arent actually helping there, either, it seems like the vast majority of people using them are on a deadrat or debian based distro anyway...
     
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  10. gdjacobs

    gdjacobs Member

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    AppImage doesn't require any of the framework infrastructure of the other two. Instead, it assumes the presence of some standard libraries (like libc, gdk-pixbuf, crypt, etc.) and loop mounts the rest from it's package on execution. Have you tested any AppImage software to compare against Snap and Flatpak?
     
  11. Quadbox

    Quadbox Member

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    No I haven't. A glance shows gentoo as unsupported, and I'd only use any of the above if I had no other choice in any case. If someone decides only to distribute something in that format I'll have to experiment then
     
  12. gdjacobs

    gdjacobs Member

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    Well, there's not a lot required to "support" AppImage. The libraries AppImage expects to be in place are listed here:
    https://github.com/AppImage/pkg2appimage/blob/master/excludelist

    Otherwise you should be good to go. Not sure why they haven't explicitly outlined a tested Portage configuration, although it could be partly due to building from source being a general requirement for Gentoo users.
     
  13. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    Ubuntu 19.10
    Code:
    /dev/loop1      155M  155M     0 100% /snap/chromium/1143
    /dev/loop2       55M   55M     0 100% /snap/gtk-common-themes/1502
    /dev/loop0       55M   55M     0 100% /snap/core18/1705
    /dev/loop4       55M   55M     0 100% /snap/core18/1754
    /dev/loop3       28M   28M     0 100% /snap/snapd/7264
    /dev/loop6       63M   63M     0 100% /snap/gtk-common-themes/1506
    /dev/loop5      157M  157M     0 100% /snap/chromium/1165
    /dev/loop7       31M   31M     0 100% /snap/snapd/7777
    
    Reasons I'm switching away from Ubuntu, snapd and systemd.
     
  14. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I've actually hit cases where using losetup and/or "mount -o loop" broke because snap was doing dumb shit.

    I know that I'm not "the average user". But fuck me, that's something I use pretty regularly for personal and professional reasons, and simple things like other loop devices in the list shouldn't break that.
     
  15. gdjacobs

    gdjacobs Member

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    WTF? Snaps being provided as dependencies for other snaps? Someone's gone off the deep end.
     
  16. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906
    Nice. :thumbup:

    https://www.blender.org/download/releases/2-83/

    This is the one for me, since I'm just starting to use blender for more then just a video editor.
    https://www.openvdb.org/

    This looks interesting.
    https://www.khronos.org/openxr/

    PS - this release is a LTS with support for 2 years! :shock:
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
  17. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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  18. RnR

    RnR Member

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  19. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2020/06/ubuntu-rolling-release-rhino-tool
    Nice!
     
  20. Quadbox

    Quadbox Member

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