Phido's Tronxy x5sa 500 to Mega Vxbot

Now this is a topic on which I desire more information. Which PPS are you using, settings, drying, wanna sell me a small amount?

I just had a wander over there. Around $4k AUD landed for a 400^3 IDEX beast?
Dammmmmmmmnnnnn. Bambu had better drop something QUICK before I make a bad impulse decision.

 

The stuff I am using is Xypolmer PPS blend. Its not pure PPS.
https://www.amazon.com.au/toughened-Engineering-Temperature-Resistance-Dimensional/dp/B09N9JDV6Q

However, it is printable with an unmodified P1S. Its weaker than CF pure PPS, but most of the heat properties are there, and that is what I need, and I can print it. It still super strong. Its also, fairly cheap, for a super plastic filament. Full strength PPS CF is more than twice as much.
Because its not CF, it can run through the standard AMS, just wack it in and print, although the plastic roll is too big to allow the lid to shut tight. PPS isn't very hydroscopic, so I didn't dry it, or even keep it in a airtight bag, just open, wack it in and send it. For things like a 3D printer engine mount or a fan duct, this will be fine. It has a lovely grey shiney metallic look finish that PPS has, and if you drop it, it sounds like metal. Brims sound like metal foil. This is going to replace the PC blend I was using before (which is even cheaper at $30 a roll delivered), which is fine for less critical engineering bits. But at less than $100 a roll this PPS blend is super useful, and being CF free means I can use it in my ams and use support material or just be lazy and leave it in there.

This is going to be my go to engineering material. The look, strength, temp is all pretty good. Eventually when this printer is finished, I will be able to print pure CF PPS, and with a hotter bed and hotter chamber. Being able to handle 150C+ with ease should be fine for my purposes. Particularly when you want something high temperature capable, but also temperature insulating. I did some annealing in my kitchen oven, and it was fine up to 150 degrees in the top of my oven. Yeh, its that good. Just chuck them in with the griller on and glowing like they are fish fingers.

Yeh, it aint cheap, and deliveries seem very slow.
The Qidi Plus 4 is out. 300x300x280 and specifically high temp specifically with PPS. Its cheap for the size and the high temp nozzle and 65 degree chamber. $1200..
The Orangestorm Giga is also coming out to Australia.. <$4k.

But if you want something big and high temperature, prices go through the roof. 100C chamber and say 150C bed, its VZbot or Ratrig. the 500 size is also pretty wacky. Ratrig uses 8mm bed? Some say 10mm is required if you don't have any other supports, which is why I want to use the standard tronxy z setup because its well supported.

But again, its pretty significant capability. I can single print SM-3 missile bodies and nose cones (24") out PPS - if I wanted. I can print entire car/bike wheels 18", or like furniture such as stools, or single piece parts for automotive like air intakes.

 

Doing some strength testing, I may need to play with some of these settings. I didn't get good layer adhesion on one of the pieces. Possibly because too slow and too cold. I did print all 6 parts of the engine mounts at the same time, so each part probably cooled down too much between layers and I used 0.1mm layers and was printing really slow with 6 layer walls. Particularly because the P1S can only go 100C bed and 300C hot end, its right at the min required.

The Beacon part duct and hotend duct printed out wonderful. They will easily be able to handle high temps. Layer adhesion seems good, seems strong, looks nice.

I finally got my whole hotend/printhead assembled. The Fysec minisherpa fits, with the mellow brass gears (which i've pulled from the Mellow sunrise), on the VZprinthead mount. Looking through discord, they designed the print head as a heatsink which is particularly needed for the air cooled version of goliath, particularly when printing hot materials. I am not a huge fan of the Vzprinthead and goliath. Its very fiddly. It probably works fine, but they made it to be made of as many small parts as possible. My attraction to the sunrise as a single bolt on piece is well founded. I will have to find a use for these..

I am wondering if hotbed is maybe more important than chamber temp. With a hot enough bed, and maybe some halogens, you can probably overcome most issues for many materials.. My new hotbed temp is ~120-140C.

I've noticed that Bambu and Prusa are now getting into more exotic materials. Bambu has PPS, and Prusa has Ultem, both have some pretty capable high end expensive Nylon stuff. Materials that were previously very hard to print, are now possible, at least small parts. PPS and Ultem while difficult and expensive, are still cheap enough for hobbists. 1KG of PPS or Ultem, is a lot, but if you are just printing smaller or thin/light weight parts, its still going to be cheaper than out sourcing to get CNC or buying a CNC, and while you could get these printed externally, its a hassle and inconvenient.

Both of these materials have special qualities that may make them more attractive than metal anyway. Like non-conductive, not paramagnetic, not particularly thermally conductive.

 

Yeah, given the suboptimal conditions I'd be printing parts by object to maximise the heat buildup & layer adhesion. Are you annealing?

 

Yeh, sort of, trying it out. My wife doesn't like the idea of me putting a bunch of wacky plastics into the oven for 8 hrs changing temps etc.
Toaster oven incoming. I've never had to anneal before, so Its a big experiment.

These parts are pretty flat and didn't consume much filament. I think only two really need to be reprinted for max strength. They get metal bolts put in them to strengthen them and are pretty overbuilt anyway. Basic Tronxy setup used to come with just plastic acrylic motor mounts that famous broke when Youtubers tried to assemble the printer.

 

I got my beacon. Fitted. My Print head is all done. I paid for the beacon, its such a massive bed, high speed leveling, and meshing the area is important as big beds are hard to get flat.

Im still a bit confused what to do with the print bed. I have all the bits, but no good way to mount it, and I don't really see a good way to mount the 6mm ratrig 530mmx530mm bed within the existing tronxy mount, and I don't really want to pull everything apart to do it. The existing Tronxy bed is getting chucked, its just a 2mm PCB header bed. I'll keep the glass, could be handy for some material and some prints.

 

I was doing my tax returns, so I added up all my costs.

I have spent about $3,500 on the printer, however, that is an inclusive of a bunch of stuff that aren't likely to be fitted to it, tools, things etc. I probably have $700 of stuff that isn't on it. The two alternate printheads, rails, extrusions, etc, I bought some extras of some stuff because shipping was so high and something like that would always be useful. Additional nozzles, fans (lots of fans lots of sizes!), electronics, wiring etc. A lot of stuff that is still useful.

I feel ok about this. It has been an experiment. Things could have been done cheaper and more direct.
I priced up a ratrig 500 VCore4 and its about $3900 delivered. If I was starting again, I would do that. No doubt about it. It would be a much faster, more direct route, less annoying, less stressful less bonkers. The thing I will build will be different, different capabilities, etc. But a large printer has large costs. Making it capable of printing exotic stuff also makes costs go through the roof. At least $500-$1000 is really high temp costs. The goliath, high temp silicon mat, glass bed and PEI sheet, enclosure, etc.

The printer is still being built, just slowly, I have an overseas holiday coming up but after that I hope to finish this project by the end of the year and actually get it printing well.

 

I said the same thing about my Ender 3v2. That P1S equivalent was all "learning expenses"...

 

This project is still moving. SLOWLY!

I am putting a 0.8mm polycarbonate sheet on the inside of my ACM sheets for better insulation and heat proofing. Some experiments confirms ACM deforms very badly a 80C+ in hot air The aluminium expands, and permanently warps the plastic underneath. Also the aluminum tends to wick away heat, into the frame. I am hoping the polycarbonate stops that. Its pretty heat resistant, and because one side of the aluminium doesn't rapidly heat up the warping seems to basically disappear at 80C. It will be stuck to the ACM with double sided tape. It will be also located by the plates and m5 screws so it aint going anywhere.

My lid will be built from 25.4mm black anodised square tube from bunnings. I don't need to make it out of 2040 extrusions, it will just be heavy. I can use two layers of Polycarb for insulation while making it visible and light.. 2x8mm polycarb doors at the front.

VZbot apparently has new motor mounts coming out with double sheer support. Lack of double sheer means low tension belts, and when your belts are metres long it can be an issue with resonance.
I am thinking about packaging the electronics now. I want a proper enclosure for this, that then mounts to the back. But I need to add a another 2040 profile to keep the back ridgid enough, the ACM Isn't strong enough to mount to powersupplies etc to it without wooblying everywhere. Yeh, this is like no one actually built one of these printers before as an enclosed semi hightemp printer at 500mm.

I have also worked out how to mount my bed plate to my tronxy Z setup, which is again unique for the 500 series printers. Sometimes I wonder if anyone has actually truely built a VZbot out of a tronxy X5sa 500.. AFAIK most are scratch builds using part Voron and Vzbot setups.It will be floating like ratrigs/hvorts etc. But it isn't a triple, which people seem to have problems with on really big printers like 500+mm. 740mm per span is too much. At these sizes, the beds are getting real weighty. 4.5Kg just for the aluminium bed alone (over 6kg for a ratrig spec 8mm bed!)! A 400x400 is more like 2.6kg,

With say 120C difference the print bed will change size by over a 1.25mm, which is why if you tighten them, they taco majorly.
But the triple mount doesn't give enough support either IMO.

I will run 2x2040 extrusions between the two z screw steel supports. I need to do some custom cads.I will print them out of PET-CF, I will print all my high temp stuff out of PET-CF, it seems stiffer/stronger than my PPS.

Chamber temp is target is more like 80-90C now. But the bed should support 130C. Big fans blowing on it to heat the chamber up, maybe a small heater to help keep temp, but the bed is still always the largest heating element, it has huge thermal mass and power (at 1500w!).

 

After landing some PPS-CF of my own, can confirm it's nuts. However the Bambu printers are right on the bottom end of thermal usability. There is a hardware hack that I've now tried that results in much stronger and metallic tingier PPS prints

 

Yeh, I think that is my issue is that the bambu doesn't get hot enough really to print it.. I am on a P1S and the bed nor the nozzle really gets hot enough to print full strength quality prints. But oh so close. probably another 10-20 degrees on the nozzle will do it. But I don't really want to modify my Bambu, its currently the only working printer. My PPS is CF free, so is noticeably less stiff than the PET-CF anyway, and the layer adhesion I think would be improved with the hotend mod. But the PET-CF is cheaper.

PET-CF should be fine for what I am doing, in these non-critical parts like the enclosure hinges and connectors, etc.

Trony also has new 500 printer..
TRONXY VEHO 500 Pro

https://www.tronxy3dprinter.com/pro...int-size-500x500x500mm?variant=45649836867804

• Linear rails on the x,y,z axis (4 on the z axis!)
• four motor z axis (60mm?) with BALL screws, left are belted together, and right are belted together so its not a quad leveling setup, but scaled down from their other VEHO printers.
• Spring loaded xy belt tension system
• AC bed heater (although I can't see if its any good or just a AC PCB heater - Use the glass bed and stick a PEI sheet on top Im not sure the glass is removable).
• Klipper and wifi
• A nozzle touch leveling system (like TAP off the vorons)
• 32mm^3 flowing hot end
• Ceramic heater
• 300m/s printing and 10,000m/s2 accell straight out of the box
• Currently 26% off.

If anyone wanted to build something like this, that would be a better collection of parts. They are no longer using 2020/2040/4040 extrusions on the frame, but its looks like the other parts would be compatible out of a frame built of that. Would maybe work better for incrimental improvements and a workable printer out of the box.

$2000 AUD delivered. But a Ratrig would be a better basis for a more impressive (and expensive) machine particularly for its IDEX capabilities.
But ratrigs aren't exactly easy experiences either. Nor seem to be the Gigastorms. These printers come in more sizes, like 500x500x500 or 600x600x600 or 800x800x800 or 1000x1000x1000 or 1000x1000x2000...

Big printers seem to all be a lot trickier than your smaller printers, even from the same company and with the same or similar designs. less people buy them, less people build them, less people operate them.

 

I will use this setup for my bed.


Except I will be running 2040s as that is what I have, and it will attache to the tronxy steel frame that is linking the screw and the two linear rods.

 

I gotta say the veho stuff has really impressed me!

 

They are much better. The X5sa is like a circa 2007 designed printer. The modern Veho stuff is 2024. With things like 4xball screws they are at least trying.
It looks like they are putting silicon heaters on borosilicate glass for the bed. Which isn't the dumbest, but a bit unconventional. At least they are flat, and they won't bend. The thermal conductivity for glass isn't great, but if you are just printing PLA/ABS/PETG/ASA its probably fine.

I've been deep diving into the Ratrig forums, trying to learn more about 500 size printer issues. Im trying to avoid the same mistakes. While often the ratrigs are held up to a high standard as one of the best kit printers, people still have issues, .

I am trying to wire up the printer now. Which is hard, because nothing is long enough, also not a kit, so lot of ordering little parts. Also for a first printer, this is a doozey to wire.




At least it's looking like a printer.

 

I wanna see pics

 

I tried my polycarbonate inner layer on the ACM.. Nice. But also, I don't recommend making your own super composite panels. Just use polycarbonate. I do think it will add significantly to the insulation, as polycarbonate is much more insulating that Aluminium.
I stuck down the polycarbonate with some double sided acrylic tape 1mm thick. Its like rubber. Its rated to 120C, but it will be on the outside of the polycarbonate, between that and the ACM. It should hopefully stop resonating and noise, and The panels are bolted structurally to the frame, so the glue doesn't really have to do anything.
I will also drill and secure the sheets the frame at multiple points on the edges. I also want to hide my poor workmanship in cutting the panels, with some sort of edging, that also will cover the corners. Maybe printed in the corners and an angle extrusion? Taking of the panels is labor intensive too. If I was doing it again, I wouldn't do it this way.

My kinematic mounts will be printed on PET-CF on the bambu, when I get this printer working I will re-print them on PPS-CF and I will give them an aluminium support plate so the load is all on aluminium. My kinematic mounts will sit on 2040 extrusions. The bed is so heavy, it ripped the M4 hammerhead nuts right out of the extrusion. Big printers have big forces. I have ordered proper T nuts, hammerhead sucks for anything load bearing..

I cut my lid aluminium today as well, out of 25.4mm black aluminium from bunnings.. I will print PET-CF connectors for it.
I've ordered Polycarbonate for the lid and the doors. The lid will be double layered, hopefully with a 0.8mm internal and a 4mm external with an airgap.

I should have gone straight up for water cooling too. My motors are in the enclosure, prints at this size could go for days. Also the 30mm fan on the hot end is weak as and I hate wiring the connectors for it. There really isn't a great way to mount a larger fan on the Goliath other than stuffing around and possibly losing dimensional printing which I don't want.

 

That's lookin PRO!

 

Someone on the Vzbot discord said it looked like a ender 5.. Which I guess it does.. Its also just the bare bones. The glizty stuff can come later. I want some UV lighting for it. Also getting a lot of hate for not going triple Z, as that is very sexy right now. But the kinematic bed is the key part of triple Z. You don't need linear rails and 3 independent z's, you don't need the rigidity of linear rails on your z, and 3 seperate z sound nice, but you actually introduce more problems.. You need a flat, stable bed, and that is totally possible with kinematic mount on a cantilever setup. For large printers it solves a lot of problems, and really you should belt your three steppers with triple z anyway, particularly on large printers.

Also its the only part of the original tronxy I am still using.

I ordered 9.5mm polycarbonate for my front doors. Man its like bullet proof glass thick. Too thick. Very heavy, good thing they can mount to the 4040's. I should have just gone with 4mm polycarbonate all over.

I am hoping to have it wired up electrically by the end of this week. That is the dream. I want things to physically start moving maybe even a test print say next week.
It needs to start coming together, because I have a CNC arriving soon.