Discussion in 'Programming & Software Development' started by MotorAce, Jan 11, 2003.
Yes, its sad but true.
If you want lots of money, give chemical engineering a whirl.
Yes the market is flooded right now, but there are still opportunities to be had if you can pimp yourself. $35k is probably baseline for a coding job, but after a few years you could be pulling around twice that. Like anything, it depends on how you apply yourself.
$35K sounds right for a graduate programmer working in Brisbane. Good luck finding an IT job unless you have some commercial experience though...
With 2-3 years experience he should be on $45-60K. I don't think there are too many $70K+ programming positions around these days.
I would seriously consider pulling out if you are unsure. IT job prospects have been pretty poor the past year or two and I don't think it's going to improve much.
At the moment, you're looking at a 4 year career before you either get made redundant or you burn yourself out.
There's fuck all work at the moment, and because of that, it's a sellers market - you get people who have a lot of experience and you don't have to pay them much because they are desperate.
You can get work, but it's nothing like '98 or '99
I got a graduate programmer/research job that pays $42k straight of Uni. So there are jobs out there, they probably just aren't as easy to get as they used to be.
Another problem is that uni's aren't making it as difficult to get the degree anymore.
So alot more people have a batchelor in (insert words of choice) were some dont neccesarily deserve it. If you want your uni degree to help you get a good job, get outstanding marks so you stand out... atleast outstanding marks is still hard to achieve.
If you check the tech forum on monster.com.au, a few regulars are actually advising against a career in IT and instead to go for something in health or finance. Some have either left their IT course midway or completed their degree and are looking into other courses with better career prospects.
Either way, I hope the decision you make is the right one for you!
i only just finnished first year so i could switch majors but im not sure what i want to do
is the problem with programming or IT in general? i was thinking about switching to either info sys, ecommerce or emerging technologies.
I've finished first year and plan to get the marks to go honours aswell as gain some good experience along the way. I'm banking on there being good salaries for those dedicated and passionate about programming and have the marks, credentials, experience and portfolio to back that up. I keep hearing that graduating with excellent marks is a sure fire way to get good graduate positions.
Here's one opinion for the IT slowdown:
" IT Jobs ARE low in Australia, UK and US (this I know for sure as I have contacts in the UK and US) and it's for various reasons. The surge leading up to Y2K, the unanticipated high cost of Y2K (many companies underestimated their IT budgets), dotcom crash (a whole story on its own), offshoring, there was also the GST changes, the olympics, the government not knowing when to cut back the intake on immigration, not to mention the high cost of IT in general.
The bad news, it's never going to be like it was 2-3 years ago. The good news according to the media, is that people are still being made redundant, but not as many as in the past and the industry may start to stabilise after the gold rush years.
If you want to be in IT in Australia I think you're going to have to be very very very good at it and you'll also need excellent business skills."
While I'm not quite sure on the following, it would appear there is alot of outsourcing of IT work to India and China, which seems to be making life difficult for local IT people.
I'm not sure what you mean by people still being made redundant and it's relevance to the market as a whole. Companies' are still hiring people but not as many as in the past.
The article also stated that the majority (40% I think) of IT jobs advertised these days were for software engineers.
By the way the economy works, the market gets bigger. As the world gets more and more computer literate, there will be new demand. We are still in an industry of great growth. Just because tonnes of lay people got burned financially and some graduates lost thier cushy jobs doesn't mean the well has dried up.
The software industry and IT thrives and survives on innovation. Now if you are going to tell that innovation is dead, then you don't understand people.
This may be optimistic, but I see a prosperous road ahead for the industry and it will continue to grow like no other before it.
Now Apple is one company that doesn't understand IT well enough. They seem to think that they can rest on thier laurels every 5 years on thier innovations and charge insane amounts of money for them. But innovation is the tool for survival, not market domination. If you can speed up your innovation, then maybe you can take a bigger slice out of the pie.
Take nvidia. They destroyed the seemingly unstopable voodoo brand through innovation, and doing it faster than its competitors.
AMD made inroads through innovation against intel but at the same time they didn't cover thier arses in terms of ensuring reliability.
I did a 3 year programming degree and managed to get a government position. It is a great job, the government treats you really well and you have a very stable job. The pay may not be as much as in the private sector but you are practically garunteed to be on 50k after 3 years and your job is safe.
I love my job. I get payed a healthy amount to program all day for a good employer. If this sounds like what you are after then there might be light at the end of the tunnel for you, providing you are willing to move to Canberra.
I'm going all out and have my heart set on working for MS.
I've got the connections with some very big companies (currently im working for Patrick Corporation), so hopefully one day I'll step foot in Mr. Gates office.. IT is just another case of who you know, not what you know.
If you are good, people will hire you. If you are another one of those typical IT fags at uni, who just attend, and let people like me do 40+hrs a week on group assesment, then you won't get anywhere.
I work for the government too, and judging by the salary offers I recieved from other jobs while looking for a graduate position last year and the opinions in this thread, the government pays more for an entry position that the provate sector. And the conditions are excellent.
I didn't have to move to Canberra either.
chat to your friends who jumped the other way (illustrative assumption only) in 5 years time... could be interesting.
back to the original topic,
Ofcourse, the issue not often addressed in job surveys and recomendations for uni courses is why people are taking IT. If IT is what you want to do, and you want to put some time into you're degree etc. etc. you can get a nice job (one that at least pays the bills) assuming you have some talent. However, if your in this category, you're probably looking at honours, some other further education or are already in a four year S.Eng degree or similar, these factors can put you ahead of straight 3 year IT students for as much as it counts.
On the other hand, if you're another sack who heard there's cash in IT. Go jump, your pass degree wont be worth that much and there aren't assured high paying jobs for anyone who can use more than 50% acronyms in a sentence.
I absolutely agree with the sentiment that the world won't accomodate people who cruise through a degree. I know only 2 people in my course (and year level) that are genuinely competant but not passionate about it/IT in the way we are talking about although they aren't actually doing CS or software engineering.
Most have a too-cool-for-school attitude, the cheat, they plagiarise, they get shitty marks and always complain. They even make it known during lectures and tutes that "we have no idea what you are talking about sir, hyuk hyuk."
If these are the people that start out, I can imagine the general quality of the graduates and why they might have trouble getting a job. They simply aren't able to produce anything useful. From that point of view, the market isn't flooded at all, it just needs a good flush.
As a final year CS student, let me just say you're all making me worry.
I remember something in the papers about an company in Australia that gave applicants a written test on basic programming stuff (code and algorithms) and found that most applicants didn't pass. I guess this illustrates just how many people get a degree without knowing anything.
A friend of mine is at Melbourne doing something CS/IT related. Anyway she will be doing her final 5th year and her greatest achievement in programming was an atm program in VB.
She told me how she has done other stuff but its mostly group work and she "designs the GUI and makes things look good". Sounds like BS to me.
Her sister told me she is seeing three guys, 2 because she's a slut and loves presents and the third because he does her work for her and after she graduates she is dumping him.
I get the impression that her "group work" is just her work that she hands out. Who the fuck would be that pussy whipped? She is such a slut. I wouldn't be be doing her work for her even if she was doing some crazy stuff in the sack and letting you bang her in an uncomfortable place.
Anyway, life's going to bite her back.... I think....