Retro FAQ: Sony PlayStation

Discussion in 'Retro & Arcade' started by elvis, Sep 23, 2018.

  1. badmofo

    badmofo Member

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    Hmm that sounds familiar - I waited for ages for my status to change from 'processing' and then opened a few tickets; they'd just respond with "it will be shipped next week" and close the ticket. It showed up eventually though and is a good product.

    I bought an extra switch board by mistake - I didn't realise the unit actually came with one too. It might come in handy if I want to use 2 units one day I guess.
     
  2. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    I figured for the extra $8.50 I would buy a second switch board straight up.
    It will live in my arcade cabinet for light gun games but I wanted the option of moving the cartridge to another unit in case I want to play something on the lounge.
     
  3. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    Today my confidence with a soldering iron excelled.

    IMG_20200125_133026.jpg IMG_20200125_200048.jpg
     
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  4. greencamel65

    greencamel65 Member

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    how are you finding the PSIO?
     
  5. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    Did the trace cuts last night as prep, did the soldering this morning, haven't had a chance to mess with it too much yet.
    Just threw on a couple of non multi track games to test it which are both NTSC though so I've got the same black and white issue you have since the unit is PAL.

    Not sure what the best approach is here as I'm not too keen on hunting down an NTSC console and swapping PSU.
    There is the option of patching NTSC to PAL but is that a dirty fix or does it actually run the games at the correct speed?
     
  6. greencamel65

    greencamel65 Member

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    I'm going to assume that the timing will be out, my logic is that if it was a simple patch then games like crash bandicoot would run at the right speed regardless of PAL or NTSC
     
  7. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    I'm just gonna roll with PAL for the moment since that's what I played as a kid so it's not that bad.
    Would like to get NTSC working for Time Crisis/Elemental Gearbolt.

    Other switch board is going into the chipped PS1 methinks!

    Just been fiddling with merging bin files and making CU2 file - Somewhat tedious.
    forum posts suggest there's an inaccuracy in the built in bin merge function of the systems console program. So I've been using ISO Buster to merge the bins then this python script to generate CU2.

    Just dumped a bunch of stuff on there to play around with including some old racers that are compatible with my old madcatz wheel.
     
  8. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    PS1HDMI prototype preview from citrus3000psi:


    I got a genuine sony svideo cable the other day at a reasonable price. The PS3 branded one but thanks to multi AV out it's compatible with PS1/2/3.
    It's so sharp on a 68CM CRT I find myself reducing sharpness to soften the dithering. The CRT also has a digital noise reduction setting that softens the image when enabled but tends to smooth/blur it a bit too much for my liking.
    Same deal when running it through a retrotink. The tinks smoothing filter takes care of it but I don't really like how blurry it makes the image overall.
    I feel like if you go too sharp with the PS1 it ruins titles that make heavy use of dithering.

    Will be interesting to see if the final PS1HDMI product has anything to combat this that doesn't also just result in an overly blurred image.
     
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  9. Vanne

    Vanne Member

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    pretty amazing.. but not sure if it looks "TOO" sharp in my eyes? anyways, would love to see the finished ps1hdmi product.
     
  10. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    that capture looks great but those games don't have heavy use of dithering I don't think - I think GT2 has some but it's not too excessive. It depends on his capturing too as you can see the rooftop of the car in GT2 jump between a grid of undithered pixels then smooth which could come down to video compression.

    This is Ridge Racer Type 4 which I've noticed dithering becomes obvious in darker areas with sharp video output. Hopefully the pics illustrate it properly, photo via svideo/retrotink/31" LCD. This first shot is exiting a tunnel you can see the road has a vertical/horizontal grid dithering pattern and the tunnel wall/roof has an alternated diagonal pattern.

    IMG_20200209_194348.jpg
    Once you leave the tunnel and it's a bit less noticeable.
    IMG_20200209_194646.jpg
    The problem isn't that the pattern is there, the problem is that it's a applied to the screen not the texture. So it stands out so much because the game is moving behind it but the pattern is static.

    I remember having a 51CM CRT back when I was a teenager and playing FF7 over composite video and I noticed it then. Even back then when I had no idea technically what it was I just fiddled with my sharpness setting to soften it.

    I feel like a PS1 HDMI solution with no filtering is going to result in an insanely sharp dither pattern over some games and it won't be great.
     
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  11. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    I just tried out a general patcher to disable the dithering, here's the results:
    IMG_20200209_203807.jpg
    So now textures look better but the sky has banding:
    IMG_20200209_203359.jpg

    This is old news of course but something I would consider before forking out money for a HDMI mod that's going to make these dithering patterns extremely apparent in a lot of instances.
     
  12. OP
    OP
    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I wonder if a horizontal-only bilinear filter would help? I think the effect on 16 bit titles helps a little without making everything look muddy and out of focus.

    Although those games don't employ that static mask effect. So maybe something else is needed.
     
  13. Vanne

    Vanne Member

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    I think I’ll stay put with a nice crt for psx games, can’t beat that. ;)
     
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  14. OP
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    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    While I agree, the fact is CRTs are headed for extinction. And while they still exist and we can compare and document, we should be thinking about the best was to display these games once they're gone.
     
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  15. power

    power Member

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    has anyone tried a PS1 into a smaller CRT? I'm thinking maybe my 1084S??

    I should just try it for science and see what the results are like. So good quality screen and low quality input (composite).

    wonder how hard to find this would be

    http://www.psxdev.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=201
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
  16. OP
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    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Yeah I've played a PS1 on a ~15" screen. It hides a lot of the PS1's "low poly, low res, bad filtering" sins, and as long as you're playing something that doesn't have a lot of text, it's absolutely fine.

    I think realistically though ~21" is about what you want for practical gameplay. But smaller is certainly doable for a bunch of titles.

    I spent a lot of time comparing Metal Gear Solid back when we were doing the "Let's Play" on my 21" PVM versus my 30" consumer CRT. And while I ultimately prefer the larger screen for sitting back on the couch, the smaller screen definitely made that era of gaming feel "sharper".
     
  17. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    A smaller desktop CRT should help but because it tends to mask a larger area of the scene it will still be noticeable just less so. Throwing a scanline generator into the mix would probably help too?

    If there's a better way to filter it maybe they can implement a different algorithm as elvis mentioned.
    If the HDMI solution just ends up offering the same type of filtering as a Rad2X cable and requires internal hardware modification then I have to ask.. what's the point.
    At least for anyone just wanting to hook it up to a display and play and assuming the HDMI solution costs more than a Rad2X cable.

    I get that the dithering is part of the PS1's DNA but if it stands out this much via Svideo It can only stand out even more via RGB.
    At least it's not applied to the entire screen in every game!
     
  18. OP
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    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I can respect the argument for a 100% pure digital signal. Even for CRT fans, it means being in control of the DAC in use.

    For example, a Dreamcast with DCHDMI to a low cost VGA DAC offers a far cleaner, far more standards-compliant signal than native VGA out from a Dreamcast.

    Yes, the effort is considerably more. No, you may not care for good quality DAC based consoles like Sony's offerings (I'd dare say PS1->RAD2X would produce a more similar picture to a pure HDMI signal than other consoles with notoriously poor circuitry, like the first gen "jailbars" MegaDrive or N64's HDMI solution with the horizontal blur removed).

    The PS1 and consoles of its ilk are in a weird "middle child" spot when it comes to displays. I'm totally sold on digital out for PS2, GameCube and Dreamcast (for their 3D titles at least - arcade ports with pixel graphics look sexy in 240p on CRT out of these consoles). I'm totally sold on all-analogue for MegaDrive and SNES. But that PS1 / Saturn / N64 era is just stuck in the middle, depending on what you're playing.
     
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