Retro videos to watch.

Discussion in 'Retro & Arcade' started by power, Oct 5, 2016.

  1. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    I occasionally check out footage of a game I haven't heard of to decide if I might like to try it sometime. Particularly PS1/PS2 obscurities. I want to give immediate kudos to any youtube channel that records original hardware.
     
  2. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I should make myself clear - I don't mind emulators. It's just when they don't compensate for sensible things like accurate pixel ratio.

    Just resize the damned thing in any image editor you like. A neat trick is using 1:1 linear scale to blow it up to a huge res, then shrinking with a filter back to 4:3, and it looks great.
     
  3. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    Without getting into aspect ratio I just think if someone is going to upload a large number of gameplay videos to a channel and make a thing of it they should be using original hardware.

    I like MVG's videos. Even when I already know about a topic he covers I still enjoy watching his take on it.
     
  4. OP
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    power

    power Member

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    i'm annoyed when people do upload a lot of stuff and heavily rely on emulation and then make incorrect assumptions about the games. this really shits me.

    MVG sometimes brings things to my attention I may not have thought of, honestly the fact he kept banging on about the original xbox is the reason i bought one - and i love him for that too.

    I hope he gets some more Amiga content soon, I bet he will as it's clearly his first love.

    There's something more geniune about him using his 1084S all the time that feels way more legit than the constant stream of PVM's.
     
  5. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Almost impossible to do for certain hardware. For example, MAME has done more for arcade documentation than literally all other hardware preservation and documentation efforts (ignoring places like The Arcade Flyer Archive, which doesn't look at hardware).

    And where do you stop with that? There's lots of visual effects that only work because of a combination of certain art seen a certain way on a CRT. Capturing that via an OSSC into a high end DVI/HDMI capture card removes the "accuracy" as well.

    At some point we just have to deal with the fact that not everyone can get access to the same setups that these games were designed for. That includes accessory hardware and original hardware. And as time goes on, that affects more and more games.

    We need to get past the elitism, and realise that accessibility is important too.

    This. I have zero problems with emulators, but people do need to state how they're documenting things, and deal with the fact that there might be potential issues.

    And again, I see this even on original hardware with digital mods and upscalers. So it's not limited to emulation at all. Listening to a SNES with a S/PDIF mod or a Megadrive with a triple bypass or a N64 with a HDMI mod on a high res OLED produces dramatically different effects on certain games. Effects that a lot of modern gamers, even with "original hardware" are missing out on.

    This absolutely is not a black and white thing. There's nothing wrong with any of these methods - emulators/FPGA, mods, high res TVs, whatever. People just need to document how they captured the information, including all tools and mods, so that the viewer knows what they're seeing.

    Good science is about documenting as much as you can - data sets, results, and method. That lets other people compare and contrast, which in turn allows for objective comparison and improvement.

    That's why I'm such a huge fan of projects like MDFourier. Objective comparisons with real hardware make emulation and FPGAs better and better over time. Likewise, comparing real arcade boards to MAME, or any other hardware/emulator combo, means we can see exactly where things are going wrong and correct them.

    Fascinating that you say that, given what I've posted here. :)

    Again, how does a 1084S compare to an OSSC upscaled, DVI-captured video stream? Even without emulation, where do you draw the line for "accuracy"? Points to consider.
     
  6. OP
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    power

    power Member

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    I used to plug anything and everything into my 1084S to the point it was my main television for ages :D It has a composite input that compares favourably to a high end tv of the same size remembering of course they are 13", not that that was really a thing. I meant legit as in this is a thing he owns as a real person he didn't become a YouTuber then pay some ungodly price for a PVM.

    I would like some people to have a few shitty TV's in their pile of retro gear to show off what it was like "back in the day".

    I actually think my memories of early PC and console games are becoming tarnished by watching too much YouTube capture - honestly I LOVE watching MLiG but goddam their capture is some kind of sorcery. Thank fuck i can got round to WuZMoT 's place and playing on his gear - real HW done right complete with some off geometry here and there and a nice warm glow. I'd take that any day over a MiSTer (no i'm not having too much of a go here) and a pile of ROM's hooked into my 4k display.

    Honestly room is my biggest issue, which i'm sure anyone who's seen the old rear projection TV sitting in my living room would laugh at me for saying.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  7. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Well, a gentle reminder that a MiSTer plugged into a CRT is, picture-wise, indistinguishable from real hardware for over 90% of the supported cores. I could trivially fool you (or me, or anyone) in a blind test on many cores.

    Audio is more frequently a different story due to analogue components (but also improving because MDFourier - Megadrive is indistinguishable to human ears thanks to that). But the video output is the same for almost all of the consoles and computers that do RGB (including Amiga), verified on an oscilloscope by many independent individuals.

    Again, I urge people to get over "original hardware" elitism. It's a great cognitive limitation that has little value in these discussions, particularly with advancements made in the last 10 years. If your argument is nostalgia for a box and a logo, that's fine (I'm totally with you there - my consoles remain proudly on display in my games rooms). If your argument is accuracy, we're already there in a lot of cases, with more and more improving by the day.

    An I say that as someone with over 50 original consoles and microcomputers (on top of MiSTers and MAME cabinets). And the point is bigger than that. Many people don't have the money for this stuff, and elitism only gets in the way of helping others get an objective picture of what's worth buying.

    There are absolutely cores where this isn't the case. NES's native semi-YIQ (non-RGB) native colour palette, for example, is a remaining problem. Ironically NES-RGB and HDMI-NES mods with their aftermarket palettes produce exactly the same error, so in that regard a modded NES and a MiSTer are equally as incorrect as "original hardware". But this is where we objectively document those limits, and not sweep them all into the same pile in a silly "original vs non-original" argument that misses the important nuances of what's available today.

    I mean, a really easy example of how silly this can get is when people claim soft-modded new consoles or flash carts on old consoles "aren't genuine". Or that third party gamepads and video cables "aren't genuine". These people exist in the community, and it's fairly easy to see how nuts the push for "original" can get sometimes. I mean, if you want to be that insane person with a 100% complete NES cartridge collection, be my guest. But even with my literal hundreds of original boxed games, I'm not interested in that level of obsession.

    I have around 30 of them, on top of broadcast monitors and arcade monitors. Variety is the spice of life.

    And even then, I'm A-OK with anyone who wants their consoles connected to an OSSC or RetroTink into an OLED, or anyone who wants a MiSTer on their flat panel. You can't "play games the wrong way". As soon as we gatekeep this stuff, we're destroying the whole point of it - to have fun.

    Really, I think everyone on all sides of this needs to chill out. Hardware pokers or emulator tinkerers (or folks like me who do both), we can all co-exist happily. Get excited about the bits you love, sure. But nobody needs to tear the other side down to justify their own toys.

    I swear, once COVID is done, I'll open up casa-de-elvis for a couple of game nights. Been meaning to do that again for years. Last time I did it was around 4 years back, and it was a hoot.
     
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  8. OP
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    power

    power Member

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    how did YouTube know i was thinking about this







     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
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  9. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    There's an excellent GitHub issue sitting open now where a developer is postulating 8K 360+FPS displays, and what can be done with those to produce ultra realistic CRT simulations. Not just on clean image stretching and phosphor simulations in 3D APIs, but also in sub-frame effects.

    https://github.com/mamedev/mame/issues/6762

    At those display resolutions and speeds, it's theorised that we can simulate the look and feel of a CRT well enough to be indistinguishable to human eyes (and perhaps even light guns!).

    Pretty extreme, but it's nice to know someone's already thinking about it. There is hope for a CRT-less world that's still compatible with retro gaming yet.

    If all of this happens before my last CRT dies, I'll be a happy man.
     
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  10. OP
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    power

    power Member

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    I am really enjoying this channel, i can't believe i just discovered it.

     
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  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Dunno how often I can say it.

    MDFourier.

    Literally everyone in the presentation world needs to get behind it, learn in, use it, extend it to new things.

    It can be used for any system you can imagine. Not even limited to video games. Use it to compare midi playback systems, or various PC sound cards, or a whole bunch of real world audio tools.

    Ask me why I started a whole YouTube series on display colour calibration.
     
  12. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    My gripe was specifically aimed at PS1/PS2 which I'm sure you would agree is some of the most accessible hardware.
    If PS1 is recorded using mednafen I don't really bat an eye lid. Comparatively if I see something obviously recorded in ePSXe with the resolution cranked up I get fairly put off by the result.
     
  13. dirkmirk

    dirkmirk Member

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    Voodoo3 3500 better than TN2 Ultra?

    News to me....

    Quake 3 & Unreal/Tournament outperforming by 20-25%, I always thought the TNT2 Ultra was a better card.

    Couple of things, the driver used was 45.23 for the TNT2 which was a 2003 release might not be the optimal driver.

    The test system is overkill and perhaps highlights the TNT2 performing better on Era appropriate hardware whilst the Voodoo3 could scale up a bit, interesting video none the less but I suspect using earlier drivers would get better performance for the TNT2.
     
  14. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    This is bringing back some old memories.

    I was never a Voodoo user, but I remember stuff about Voodoo cards but doing full 32bit colour. Was that changed by Voodoo3? There were also some texture size limits or something?

    I unno. Glide has its technical limits too, which is why it's not around today.
     
  15. dirkmirk

    dirkmirk Member

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    The Voodoo3 was still 16bit color, the 4500 & 5500 bought 32 bit color to 3DFX.

    I never understood the texture size limitation.

    I Always thought the 16 vs 32bit color thing was a bit overblown for the Voodoo3 vs TNT2 comparisons.

    IF you had a TNT2 would you play Quake 3 at 1024x768 at 44.8fps or 61.4fps?

    IS the 37% drop in performance for 32bit color worth it?

    I dont think it is especially games of that era, I could never really notice the difference between 16 & 32bit even going from the Voodoo3 to a geforce 4.
     
  16. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I absolutely can. You've got to remember that its not the final colour count, but the cumulative effect of light, transparency or texture multiplication that ends up in terrible banding and dithering.

    Really easy to demonstrate too. Might do that this weekend if I get a moment.
     
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  17. dirkmirk

    dirkmirk Member

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    I bought my Vooodoo3 in early 2000 but until 96 we had 386SX-33 upgraded a cyrix 5x86-100, in 1998 a Celeron 333, so whats that predominately 320x200 8bit/256 color? SVGA was still 8bit in the mid 90s im pretty sure.

    Going up to 65,536 is a huuuge upgrade,

    I cant talk for every game developer back in the late 90s but did they really use much extra colours in 3D accelerated games from 16bit to 32bit?

    Im thinking Quake 2, Half Life, Unreal, Quake 3 etc back when the debate was relevant, those games whilst amazing at the time was only a couple of years from when 8bit color was standard.

    So thats my original point the last time the color debate was relevant, the hit to performance increasing color depth was minimal in the next generation of graphic cards but during the TNT2/Voodoo3 era the penalty was still big.

    I'd be curious to track down games from say 98-2000 and see if their is any real difference between the two modes.
     
  18. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Yes. Again, you need to stop thinking "final palette" and consider what happens inside 3D engines with mathematic precision, and how that affects the final composited image. (i.e.: lengthy floating point numbers, truncated and multiplied, and the resulting errors due to premature rounding).

    Taking a picture in Photoshop and dropping it from 32bit to 16bit is not what this is. It's very different - 16bit maths end to end.

    When I'm back at a real computer, I'll demonstrate. Quake II was a particularly good example due to artistic choices, but any early 3D game will demonstrate it well.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  19. dirkmirk

    dirkmirk Member

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    Yeah from my research it appears that it was smoke affects, sky, rain that was most noticeable with the increased pallette.



    At the 5 minute mark Phil shows the difference with Incoming and Quake3, the Voodoo still looks very good 16bit for incoming but you can notice the difference in Quake3, apparently the dithering quality is game dependent("32 bit color choice for Voodoo3"?).

    Resolution and FPS was king back in those days, you wanted the highest res as it made the biggest difference for image quality, 1024x768 looked so much better than 800x600 and well worth the sacrifice going to 16bit color if you had to.
     
  20. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    No argument from me there. We made a lot of sacrifices to play those games at the time.

    My only comment above was that it was easily noticed.

    But as a dirt broke uni student, a bit of dithering was better than not eating for a month with the cost of new hardware back then. :lol:
     

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