1. OCAU Merchandise now available! Check out our 20th Anniversary Mugs, Classic Logo Shirts and much more! Discussion here.
    Dismiss Notice

Retro videos to watch.

Discussion in 'Retro & Arcade' started by power, Oct 5, 2016.

  1. Vanne

    Vanne Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2003
    Messages:
    1,719

    Thats probably the most informative MSX video ive ever seen.. :)


    edit: the voodoo 3 didn't do 32bit colour, and games used to run in 24bits.. lol I hear you ask, whats 24bit?? well its a bit more involved than that, it was actually 22bit... apparently the internal calculations are processed with 24-bit accuracy and then dithered to 16-bit, providing something similar to a hypothetical 22-bit color output. lol

    this is interesting though...

    "if you ask anyone that has been playing their games in 32-bit color, they'll tell you that there is a noticeable difference between 16-bit and 32-bit rendering. However if you ask a gamer that has always played their games in 16-bit color if they wake up every morning wishing that they had 32-bit color support, their answer would most likely be no. The bottom line here is that one of 3dfx's weaknesses with the Voodoo3 is definitely the lack of 32-bit rendering support, and if you're buying for the future, once again, 3dfx is not the path to follow as more and more games will begin to be built for 32-bit color rendering and will begin to look considerably better in 32-bit color. ATI has made it clear that 32-bit rendering is a viable possibility without a huge performance penalty, and 3dfx is arguing against that. 3dfx's next solution will most likely include 32-bit color rendering support, however until then, you need to ask yourself, how important is 32-bit color rendering to you? Find someone with a TNT or a Rage 128, and play a few of your games on their systems at 16-bit color then at 32-bit color, and decide for yourself. Is the difference noticeable? The answer to that is completely opinionated, find out for yourself, then decide whether or not 3dfx's obvious oversight is worth ditching the Voodoo3 for." quote from anadatech..
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  2. Flamin Joe

    Flamin Joe Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Messages:
    4,921
    Location:
    4300
    As someone who never owned a 3Dfx card during that time so my view of it was always from afar, I've always had the impression 3Dfx's sole focus was performance even if it meant sacrificing features or picture quality. The lack of 32-bit colour support was just another feature they just didn't seem to care for much for in their ultimate quest to be the fastest at all costs and it worked as at the end of the day most consumers are chasing performance which is completely understandable.

    I always seemed to be in the minority though as I was happy to sacrifice a little bit of performance if it meant getting better looking games. This is why despite it's shortcomings I went with the Savage 4 after owning a couple of Rendition cards. The Savage 4 took a little bit of a performance hit when going 32 bit but coupled with a S3TC supported game it made for some fantastic looking eye candy (for the time). The way I looked at it was that I wanted to put my money in to support a company that seemed to place a value on image quality and features over one that appeared to consider it an afterthought.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  3. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    42,494
    Location:
    Brisbane
    32bit colour is merely 24bit with an 8bit alpha (transparency) channel. It's actual still the same 8bit per channel colour depth.

    Probably incorrect to call it "32bit" in context I guess.

    The other thing for people reading to remember is that each bit doubles the number. 17 bit has twice as many colours as 16 bit. 18 twice as many as 17, and so on. So the jump from 16 to 24 is exponential.

    I'll demonstrate some maths and screen grabs soon to visually demonstrate the problem.
     
    Vanne likes this.
  4. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    64,536
    Location:
    brisbane
    I'm sure all used game collectors can relate to this quality rant.

     
    Vanne likes this.
  5. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    42,494
    Location:
    Brisbane
    OK, at a keyboard. "Quick" maths.

    This is about precision, not final colour count. So let's do some quick sums as an example.

    Let's use smaller numbers to make this easier. Say we want to do the following - multiple the square roots of the numbers 22, 3 and 8.

    Fire open your calculator, and plug 'em in. You get:
    22.978250586152114639402445872876

    Neat. Now, let's remove precision. Let's only allow for 2 decimal places in each number, rounded.

    sqrt(22)=4.69
    sqrt(3)=1.73
    sqrt(8)=2.83

    Multiply them together, and you get 22.96. Not the answer above. Easy enough to say "yeah but that's close enough", but it's not. Because say that number pointed to an RGB triplet (i.e.: a colour in a palette), now your triplet is off. You'd get a more accurate value if you did higher precious maths and then rounded right at the end, but you're not doing that. You're rounding and truncating early, making each multiplication wrong (and more wrong with each calculation you add to it). Maybe by a little, but still wrong enough to matter.

    What this ends up looking like is typically banding. Again, not because there aren't enough colours to show the final image, but because you're multiplying values constantly. Textures, transparencies, lights, ambient occlusion, shaders - all of these have a multiplicative effect. Even modern games with high colour depths have this problem. For example, here's a random stranger on the Internet running reshade on top of Modern Warfare. The image is uncompressed and quite large, so click it to see full res:

    3cf4k9pln3c51.png

    Look at the clouds. You'll see terrible banding, due entirely to limited precision. That person is running a nice modern BitchinFast3000 graphics card at highest colour depth with all details turned up to "ButCanItRunCrisis" modes, but the banding still exists.

    As most of you know I've worked in the film and VFX industries for a while, and those industries use colour accuracy far higher than 8bit per channel (i.e.: 8 bit for red, 8 bit for green, 8 bit for blue, resulting in a full 8+8+8=24 bit). Often we'll work in 10 bit logarithmic (i.e.: non-linear precision, with more precision in very bright and very dark areas where banding often occurs), or 16bit linear - again remembering that 8 bit to 9 bit doubles the colours, so that's much, much higher. And also remembering that that's per channel, so "16bit" is 3x16 or 48bit colour, or 281 trillion colours. So like before, you can't see the difference between 16M and 281T colours on a final image, but you can certainly see the result of low precision maths combining lots of colours together, like the MW image in this thread which illustrates just that.

    If you find this enthralling, read the following Wikipedia article on single, double and higher precision floating point:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-precision_floating-point_format

    And for what it's worth, this is actually a big challenge when we run scientific workloads on GPUs. Many of them are hardware limited in their precision, making calculations take several cycles to get the accuracy required. That's why GPUs can run video games nice and quick, but still struggle with VFX level graphics or high end scientific calculations.

    And why "16 bit vs 24 bit" retro graphics were more than final colour count. :)
     
    Rass, Vanne and GumbyNoTalent like this.
  6. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    9,153
    Location:
    Briz Vegas
    Anyone remember these...


    Also HDD evolution... large drum based packs brought back memories of my first job on mainframe in 1984.
     
    power likes this.
  7. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    64,536
    Location:
    brisbane
    I've never seen those video lp's before.

    Then again the 8-bit guy reminded me there are SOOOO many formats most of use aren't aware of.

     
  8. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    64,536
    Location:
    brisbane
    Greetings and welcome to an Ars Technica "thing"

     
  9. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    64,536
    Location:
    brisbane
    I have a love/hate relationship with this channel, this falls heavily under the hate category.

     
    Flamin Joe likes this.
  10. Flamin Joe

    Flamin Joe Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Messages:
    4,921
    Location:
    4300
    Was just about to post the same video after I just watched it a few minutes ago.

    Yeah not a huge fan of his channel either. Not the brightest idea to be shorting the PSU on something you know absolutely nothing about.
     
  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    42,494
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Because you know anything even remotely similar to this in Australia would end up on eBay for a stupid price in mere seconds?
     
  12. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    64,536
    Location:
    brisbane
    no because of how he treats the machine. a machine i don't care about but yeah, guesswork and a dremel don't belong in this video.
     
    elvis and Flamin Joe like this.
  13. mareke

    mareke Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2003
    Messages:
    7,660
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    They don't make song videos like this anymore:

     
    RogerWiIco and Vanne like this.
  14. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    64,536
    Location:
    brisbane
    all that stuff would definitely benefit from a retrobrite by now i'd say.
     
  15. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    42,494
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Ah fair enough. I had a quick skim and missed that, but it sounds scary.

    I saw his CRT TV RGB mod and noted his complete lack of concern. Certain CRTs are know to have larger areas of that boards that are higher voltage, and jumping in like a cowboy can result in bad things. I think I slowed down on his channel after that.
     
  16. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    64,536
    Location:
    brisbane
    i mean yeah - that PSU is completely unique to that system, short and explode - what an idiot, all because he was being lazy trying to take shortcuts.

    a 30 year old NOS (and by the sounds of it irreplaceable one off prototype) machine. I mean he literally pulled out a brand new 36 year old Model M keyboard from the box.

    The more I think about this the angrier I get.

    Don't have the screwdriver on hand? Oh well I have a dremel.
     
    GumbyNoTalent, Flamin Joe and elvis like this.
  17. Flamin Joe

    Flamin Joe Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Messages:
    4,921
    Location:
    4300
    Considering this is his livelyhood how on earth does he not have a multi-tool set to handle stuff like this??

    This is just my hobby yet I've got a tool set which has bits for just about every screw invented, in fact for that very screw I can see 9 different sizes in my kit.
     
    okclock123 and GumbyNoTalent like this.
  18. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    64,536
    Location:
    brisbane
    he's a dremel man.
     
    Flamin Joe and GumbyNoTalent like this.
  19. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    9,153
    Location:
    Briz Vegas
    Someone should introduce that guy to a WOW stick.
     
    Flamin Joe likes this.
  20. mwd

    mwd Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2002
    Messages:
    282
    Location:
    Sydney
    Hey guys, I just did a video about my 3dfx/P1 retro computer.

     
    rugger, GumbyNoTalent, breech and 2 others like this.

Share This Page

Advertisement: