Spintel unlimited is not unlimited

Discussion in 'Networking, Telephony & Internet' started by Chamelion, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. Apokalipse

    Apokalipse Member

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    So if I sell a shirt on ebay that says it's a "Metallica" t-shirt, could I then decide to define "Metallica" as actually being "Justin Bieber" (also without even telling the user what I'm defining "Metallica" as being) and the users who buy the shirt don't get to complain?

    No, it wasn't OK. You mean they got away with it for two years.

    • His plan changed without him doing or agreeing to anything
    • There was and is nothing in the fine print which even says what they consider to be "acceptable use".
     
  2. A_C

    A_C Member

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    At least Verizon gives a few TB's before they call.

    FiOS customer discovers the limits of “unlimited” data: 77TB a month

    http://arstechnica.com/information-...-the-limits-of-unlimited-data-77-tb-in-month/
     
  3. caspian

    caspian Member

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    that's pretty normal and a regular complaint of users if you look at the last few whirlpool surveys.
     
  4. OhFoRkMe

    OhFoRkMe Member

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    @Caspain - Just for interest sakes, how many GB's over the OP's original 500GB plan do you think would have been acceptable for an 'upgraded' Unlimited plan? 501? 502?
    If the word Unlimited represented a numerical figure, would it be more or less than 500?

    @Chamelion - I wonder if you had downloaded less than 500GB in that month but still remained in the 1% of top downloaders for the month if you would have been kicked?
    Did anything happen with TIO?
     
  5. caspian

    caspian Member

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    I don't think any amount over is acceptable. unlimited by any reasonable interpretation of the word means just that - no limits.

    if an ISP is silly enough to offer such a plan they need to accept whatever happens, all the way across the bell curve.
     
  6. Grvm

    Grvm (Banned or Deleted)

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  7. caspian

    caspian Member

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    thus illustrating why "unlimited" is a dead concept.

    there's always one person who has to push the idea to totally unsustainable limits and ruin it for the 99.9% of other people.
     
  8. Grvm

    Grvm (Banned or Deleted)

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    Verizon didn't really care, they just moved him to a business plan
     
  9. lennyc

    lennyc Member

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    A given plan has a fixed download speed which limits the total quantity of data which can be downloaded in a given time. Placing a data limit will then limit the total time which you can run the connection at full speed. Unlimited has only one meaning when applied to the amount of data on offer by an ISP. The ability to run the connection at full speed continuously.

    ISP's have gotten into trouble in the past with the regulators for trying to change the acceptable usage of the word unlimited. Unsustainable is an ISP promising to deliver more data than the capacity it has to deliver that data.
     
  10. caspian

    caspian Member

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    yes, at a cost.

    no, that would be "impossible". unsustainable is when that customer costs you more than they pay for the service.
     
  11. lennyc

    lennyc Member

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    The customer IS paying the asking price for the advertised service. At no point was the customer given a limit or had a limit imposed on the unlimited service.

    Unsustainable is a business selling product below cost. A sustainable business will use a loss leader for a limited time only, to attract customers and hopefully then keep them.

    Miss representing a product to customers and then alienating them is not good business.
     
  12. biatch

    biatch Member

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    That's because ISPs work on the fact that majority of their customers won't ever do that much data. The few people that do try and actually test the boundaries, will probably end up disconnected.

    The sheer number of customers they'd attract by advertising "unlimited" is worth more $$ than the bad business they'd gain by losing the few customers who try and get unlimited data from the service.
     
  13. Linkin

    Linkin Member

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    Send all the routes?
     
  14. caspian

    caspian Member

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    I did not say they were. I said delivering the service is unsustainable, when the customer uses it far in excess of average use.

    precisely.

    "misrepresentation" is one way of looking at it. the other way is whether or not it's reasonable for the customer to interpret "unlimited" as "I can flog it 24/7/100%".

    I agree that the formal dictionary definition of the word implies yes, but I believe the intent of the product was otherwise. because of the actions of a marginal few users, the concept of "unlimited" is now ruined for all. the businesses themselves cannot afford the repercussions of trying to deal with the ACMA's definition of situation, attempts at fair-usage limitations aside - which the ACMA brushed aside as not being defined well enough for someone to push the rules to the absolute limit.

    basically the same concept as this. there's always one person who has to ruin it.
     
  15. caspian

    caspian Member

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    ^^ this.

    lennyc, unlimited plans are a leecher's delight, and would attract the sort of pain in the arse customer you active DON'T want. people who cost you more than you make from them, or who impact the experience of your other customers, are well avoided.

    everyone involved in (or with any understanding of) the business side of the industry understands that, it's only the leechers who don't like not getting a free ride subsidised by others.

    TBH I'm not entirely sorry to see the effective demise of "unlimited", just to stop a tiny few users from causing a significant proportion of the network congestion out there, which they pay relatively little for compared to others.
     
  16. lennyc

    lennyc Member

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    If ISP's don't want people to have "unlimited" use of the product, why provide it?

    Intelligent people in the industry know that if you offer an unlimited service it will be taken up by a few people who will use it as an unlimited service. Like every one else they pay the agreed price as asked by the ISP.

    These people you are describing as "leechers" and "free riders" are only using a service which they have paid for at the speed the ISP provides, to download up to the limit the ISP has set for the plan.

    The OP has stated that he adhered to the 500GB limit his old plan had. The ISP changed this limit to "unlimited". He is now a "leecher" and a "free loader" because he exceeded what limit and by how much?

    At the other end of the spectrum do ISP's heavily discount the monthly charge for those few users who use very little data as a thank you for providing them with a higher profit?

    Most of us here would fit into the category of "lechers and freeloaders" with our current downloads some five years ago! The range of light to heavy users is fairly constant. Congestion is caused by under provisioning by ISP's in an attempt to undercut their competitors on price and maximize their profits. Some ISP's will then blame their customers for using the service when they get the numbers wrong!
     
  17. ir0nhide

    ir0nhide Member

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    Dude, did you not read caspian's post? Notice how it's the cheaper ISPs that have the higher quotas/unlimited plans? It's their point of differentiation, because when you ask the question "Why should I opt for this particular ISP?" and the answer isn't service, coverage or speed, the only option left is $ per Gbyte and it's a race to the bottom. What's more than 2tbytes/month? 'Unlimited' where you kick off the people who actually exceed 2tbytes/month.

    ISPs don't "blame the customers for using their service", they use a get-out clause in their ToS to eject unprofitable clients.
     
  18. caspian

    caspian Member

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    possibly because they thought that some people would like to have a product where they didn't need to worry about monitoring their data usage, or where their usage changes a lot from month to month. that would allow people to use what they need, when they need.

    where it comes unstuck is leeches.

    if you mean thrash it 24/7 and try to download the entire internet every month, then I'm sure they do. that's why fair-use provisions were invented. unfortunately, the ACMA has apparently decided that because that doesn't represent a hard number it's not something that can be reasonably expected (because some people are patently not reasonable), and thus the death of "unlimited" as a concept.

    let me give you an example of where this fails, from personal experience:

    a work colleague of mine had a salary packaged company lease car a few years ago. these cars come with all expenses paid (fuel, servicing, rego, insurance, tyre replacement etc) as a fixed-cost package for the car you selected. the package covered all personal use, so while you couldn't sublet the thing out for use as a taxi during work hours, you could drive it where and when you liked yourself.

    the problem with this was that particular person was a bit of a nomad, and would happily take the car on interstate trips every time they had a long weekend. they and their partner would think nothing of finishing work on a Friday afternoon, and driving from Melbourne to Brisbane or Perth in a single session. they'd then have a day or two seeing family and do the same in return.

    in a three month period, this person put over 22,000km on a brand new car. the fleet manager flipped when they saw the report, and sternly told the colleague's manager that:
    • that rate of usage was well outside acceptable levels for personal usage
    • if continued, that rate of usage would result in the vehicle accumulating the average hand-back-at-2-years distance in under 7 months, or 340% of what was budgeted over the life of the lease
    • the company would *not* be wearing the costs of this, they would be billed to the colleague's business unit - around $25,000.

    the colleague's one and and two-up managers also flipped out and despite the protestations of said colleague that the lease agreement placed no defined limits on the amount of personal usage, the lease agreement was promptly withdrawn.

    I know this quite well, because I was in an acting position as the colleague's one-up manager at the time, and thus i got to have the meeting with them where I had to announce that their lease was being withdrawn, and that a further one would not be made available.


    the moral of the story is that there's always some pain in the arse that will want to screw things to the nth degree, and when they do they ruin it for everyone else. it doesn't matter whether or not that you've managed to find some loophole, once you start costing the business - as opposed to making them a profit - they're going to give you the arse.

    this is precisely why ISP agreements always allow the ISP to vary the terms of the agreement at any time.

    try thinking it about it from something other than the point of view of the aforementioned leech. how would you like to be the owner of the business basically paying for a customer to enjoy your service? because that's what it ends up meaning.
     
  19. SupremeMoFo

    SupremeMoFo Member

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    Great post caspian. Shame some people can't pull their heads out of their arses.
     
  20. [KEi]SoVeReIgN

    [KEi]SoVeReIgN Member

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    Disagree with that analogy, are the leases advertised as "Unlimited kilometres" or just 'all inclusive' ?
     

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