Star Citizen

Discussion in 'PC Games' started by Mikuji, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. Hookimus

    Hookimus Member

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    With no money coming in, the developers would have a hard deadline (when they run out of money) and would be forced to properly manage their time and resources to ensure that they have at least the foundations of the game in a state to release so that they can sell it to get more income to further improve on the game.

    It is not unreasonable for people to be at the point where they have had enough with the constant delays and simply want something (anything?) close to a game to get the return on their investment which based on the current track record will never happen whilst the developer is pulling in enough money to never leave development.
     
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  2. Sphinx

    Sphinx Member

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    Burning through $4+ million a month in running costs with years of development to go, they had better maintain $50 million a year investment income or things could fall over quite quickly.
     
  3. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    The game isn't being developed in this way though.

    A lot of key components of the game have been developed at the same time as unimportant features.

    This means that they either complete the whole thing, or they run out of money and need outside help, in which case, like in the past, scope will be redesigned to be finished asap.

    There is a upside though, if the game is completed according to Chris Robert's insane scope, the game is going to be 1000x better then games which have barely any scope (Elite Dangerous) and then try to shoehorn the extra features in, which always ends badly (elite dangerous).

    You are right but I'm pretty sure they can get outside investment easily as the potential income if the game is released and successful is huge.
     
  4. DangerMaus

    DangerMaus Member

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    Name one thing I've said that even remotely suggests they haven't been working solidly.

    I said the game is still in alpha state, doesn't meant they haven't been working their arses off trying to achieve impossible goals and deadlines while chasing feature creep.

    Saying for example that it doesn't look they will meet most of their goals (if any) for Q1 2019 doesn't mean they're not working hard, it means the goals were unrealistic either in scope, time frame or both.

    That is an example of your cultish nonsense. Spinning valid criticism to suit your perception of what I'm saying or supporting your argument.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
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  5. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Its really not that bad though

    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/1-Star-Citizen

    They do a pretty good job of completing most tasks.

    For example

    New Flight Model
    122/144 tasks completed


    Even if it gets delayed until 3.6.0, instead of 3.5.0, they've still made great progress.


    They have very important features planned all the way until Q4 2019.

    In normal development anything not completed by Q4 2019 would be scrapped. In Star Citizen they will delay it.

    The kickstarter was built around not scrapping scope. People backed for the scope.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  6. ledhead900

    ledhead900 Member

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    I think the problem is you are mistaking my objectified criticisms as pure hate, which is not the case.
    I can assure you I did not spend $30 on I am invested just a little over $300 with two ships LTI of course.

    I played the game Nov last year... that is not that "long time" ago thank you and even then I was falling through floors, I base my opinions on my own pure playing experiences and treatment from the hardcore fanbase for evening sniffing at the flaws with public wording, alas yes it will either be the next big thing or a giant flop the problem I have though is what is going to exist by then technology is moving faster than this game is developing games are getting better, we are almost due for another shift in normality as one tech is going to die to make room for the next phase of tech if you don't know what I am talking about I can link you a video which explains the history of tech evolution vs the industry and how when we almost tap out the potential of the current norm new mind-bending things are already in the works to take over for a new stretch of limitation pushing.

    I think if RSI just stopped giving us deadlines and due dates and adopted its done when its done approach a lot of the backlash could have been avoided.
     
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  7. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Ok fair enough, I assumed you were someone who hadn't invested.

    If you spent $300 I can understand some of your criticisms.

    My opinions are based on spending $30 and getting my moneys worth from either SP, MP or both if we are lucky.

    The FPS is great at the moment and they still have some major updates planned to improve FPS even more.

    I don't think its worth worrying about things they are planning to fix. Its delayed but at least they aren't cutting those updates out and releasing it with poor FPS for example.
     
  8. Azer1234

    Azer1234 Member

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    So ive been maining this game lately. Getting into the dogfighting aspect as anything else is boring or not yet present.

    By no means a white night, but im more optimistic than not.

    As I meet more players something dawned on me and i hope my theory is wrong, coz i would rather this game succeed.

    Its interesting that most of these hardcore SC fans that i play with couldnt give 2 shits about SQ42 as its a single player experience. Seems most ppl are more interested in the PU, myself included. This doesnt really matter tho because these kind of players will probs play SQ42 thru once because theyve bought the package and they may as well.

    The possible problem i foresee is that when SQ42 goes live there wont be any new sales money from the current fan base as most of them have probably already purchased.

    Typically the games that become very popular and rake in the cash are the ones that appeal to a wide audience. In depth pc games are master race, and sure a lot of them do well, but is SQ42 going to be popular enough to outweigh the investment of paying all these Actors etc.

    If SQ42 fails then the whole project will. Just a shame most of the effort is in SQ42 which no one wants over the PU if they had to choose, except Chris the messiah of course.

    Im sure someone will disect each paragraph ive written. Nothing ive said is based on fact, just my opinion (is it possible to see how many backer have bought SQ42?).

    My point is that while this thread speaks the doom of SC for many reasons, I beleive the biggest threat to the project is SQ42 falling flat. And like all projects there are risks/reasons for that happening.
     
  9. ledhead900

    ledhead900 Member

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    Maybe that was miscommunication on my behalf, I was pretty hyped for it when it came out as a kickstart so I backed it not that long after it got funding, among many of others who backed it prior to there being anything to actually play with.

    Well then it is your lucky day, I am not as interested in the PU aspects as I am with SQ42, either way, I would play the SP to learn how to fly and get a good grip for the game before I even touched online.
     
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  10. Pinkeh

    Pinkeh Member

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    Is it time for a new game engine yet? :D
     
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  11. Sledge

    Sledge Member

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    I really only want SQ42.
    I MAY have a look at Star Citizen at some stage to see what the fuss is about, but as an original backer I only bought into it for the single player game. Originally paid $45 i think, then upgraded to an $80 package.
    That's it for me... will never put another cent into it.
     
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  12. ledhead900

    ledhead900 Member

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    Probably maybe they will go screw over Epic Games this time around,;) the current one does not support DX12 (I think, or Vulkan) and I don't see anything about RTX ON :p. But these are my overall points on this kickstart which has been going for several years. Mainstream engines and other things we will become more accustomed too are going to outpace the dev long before we see the finished game.

    Then what? Do they do as you said to rebuild the engine? How long do you think they can keep doing that starting over and merging assets and whatever code base they can, I mean it has only worked well for them once because they built took control of an engine and patched it up to be not Crytek enough to be classified as Crytek IP. Imagine if they had to rebase the entire code into a whole new engine are we going to wait another six years for that hmmm..

    If RTX becomes anything more then a gimmick AMD will dev their own chips anyway and build it into Vulkin API I mean it is not all that special and being platform locked is just bad for everybody only reason it works is because there is a dedicated chip on the card to handle raytracing separate from the main core no reason AMD cannot build this into geez I dunno how about ZEN 4 since they are doing away with tradition with ZEN3 and going chiplet topology.

    I digress to put things into perspective I backed the project in my mid 20's I am now heading towards mid 30's I will likely be 38-40 before they even get PU fully realized. I think anyone who keeps counter arguing is just plain WAAAAY to optimistic given the state the game is right now vs the HUGE list of milestones pledged and backed and I expect that computing as we know it is going to change direction before this game gets off the ground and is realised.

    Chris touted the whole project as designed to make use of NEXT generation and future hardware ... if the die-hard lovers only want to take one thing away from what I say it would be we are s good four generations of hardware into the alpha (considering the alpha launched playable around the time R9 290x were legit the bees knees for AMD) and last I checked (late Nov 2018) There was still no support for the then current generation of capabilities (Mantle now rebranded as Vulkan) and no support for today's standards of DX12 or more modern engines like Unreal 4 which lets be honest is much better then the base Crysis 3 engine they started with.

    I have no idea why the flaws are not obvious to some people. Yes, the game will get done maybe... but WHEN is a BIG FN DEAL because tech giants are not going to stop and be all like hold up, hold up we gotta wait for Chris and his vision.

    *edit
    One more tedious tidbit from my rolling rants of SC, you all may wonder why I don't take to the RSI forums about these claims, simple answer I once did and got ridiculed by the complete insanity of the high rolling backers who think even alpha is gods gifts to gaming until the thread was closed, given that RSI has taken to closing hate threads I will probably simply get my account revoked if I harp on half as much I would like, however, their in lies a problem as I do not hate bash intentionally I simply have major concerns about the progress of the game and that is something everybody who has put in more money then they should have has a right to put into question after sticking with the project for several long years.

    But don't take me for being foolish enough to be big-headed about that, those new people who cough up the $30-$45 or are planning on doing so in the near future have even more cause to complain that I do, as I backed it before we had anything and knowingly understood it was a kickstart etc, today it is subject to alpha game status imo even if Chris still chooses to hide behind the pathetic excuse of a backing a WIP it is effectively an equiv to a steam early access at this point and every single person should give a shit when it gets done as they are not giving money anymore to back a kickstart they are paying for a WIP game and that my friends makes a difference.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
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  13. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    I'm pretty sure he was just making a joke because the average person thinks Star Citizen has changed engines in the past, when they haven't really.

    DX12 and Vulkan has little benefit for Nvidia users so companies rarely bother implementing it, and when they do, its a poor implementation.

    RSI also don't need to implement it exactly, its on the Lumberyard roadmap to have both DX12 and Vulkan, so its up to Amazon and (probably) if RSI want to include that code.

    At the time of the kickstarter there was no suitable out of the box engine for Star Citizen, and today there still isn't.

    Without a crystal ball its hard to know which engine would have been more suitable as all engines needed heavy modifications.

    On a side note, I think most of the original delays for Star Citizen were from Chris Roberts wanting X, and then being told, what do you mean, the engine doesn't do that out of the box?

    Engines are terrible for large scale games with a lot of detail, thats why all the space games we have at the moment are hacked together with shortcuts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  14. ledhead900

    ledhead900 Member

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    Yes, I knew it was a joke I just ran off with it because it is true, Originally they started with Crytek struck a deal with the team to make any mods as required etc, then when they switched to whatever Lumberyard is as I have no idea still exactly what that is (prior to this they had their own somewhat heavily modified Crytek engine) Crytek then attempted to sue RSI for breach of contractual agreements and expected dividends for switching to a new platform this was no secret tho, Chris had surpassed the limitations of Crytek although I do not know if they ever talked about why they left the engine they were working on my gut tells me it has to do with getting away from the deal with Crytek into something more lucrative for RSI instead of paying royalty fees.

    Again tho we are still in the same problem if lumberyard is not developed purely by RSI from the ground up which is what is needed to get this game working the way everybody expects. I still do not see how they plan to get all this PU stuff working we simply do not have the hardware even now to get even close to the number of ships per sector as other, as you put it "hacked together with shortcuts" space games. The complexity of the models is too much for even half the on-screen fleets we typically would see coming out of say X3 Reunion or even X4/Rebirth heck even Freelancer would probably manage better in terms of ships on screen at once.

    I do appreciate the details I do but at some point enough is enough mere mortal incomes simply won't have the powerhouses to run that kind of sector activity with high poly count everything.
    Though explain how DX 12 has anything to do with Nvidia or Vulkan for that matter as AMD never platform locked Vulkan, I think you are thinking of Nvidia's dick move with the RTX ON source code AMD freely will let Nvidia use Vulkan but they have to put their own RnD into the driver to support it which Nvidia simply is not currently doing, and DX 12 is supported between both vendors and in most cases will accomplish a similar goal albeit with a bit less creative freedom.

    I have also touted from day 1 I was dubious as to why Chris even went with Cry Engine to being with, I did not think it was a good decision back then instead of working on his own engine from scratch like a good boy.
    He is not going to find what he wants from somebody else's engine not if he wants it to be optimised. Lumberyard whatever that is you will have to explain to me if that is Amazons game engine or RSI's in house concoction because even Egosoft with X3 Reunion all they years ago built an in-house engine and have developed it over the past decade into what we have now.

    I can tell you already without a crystal ball that Unreal would have been a better choice, Cry Engine reached EOL with Crysis 3, I do not know if Far Cry is using Cry Engine still (anybody knows?) Unreal came back thru strong with Unreal 4
     
  15. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Lumberyard is Cryengine licensed from Crytek in 2015. Its then had Amazon's cloud stuff added on top, perfect for Star Citizen.

    So what RSI has done is switched from Crytek CryEngine, to Amazon CryEngine.

    This is like switching from stock Unreal Engine 4, to NVidia's UE4 fork of the engine.

    So as you can see its essentially the same engine, just a different fork so they can interface with Amazon.

    Actually that isn't correct.

    Making their own engine might have paid off in the long run, but it also would have meant that game development could not have happened for a very long time since the kickstarter since they would instead need to work on the engine.

    Its also highly likely that the engine they made would have been terrible, made with spaghetti code and would have cause a serious catastrophe due to a poor quality engine and not having the right staff to create that engine.

    (see Elite Dangerous)

    Developers capable of creating a decent engine are not common or freely available to hire generally. RSI started with no staff.

    I suggest you look at the roadmap as the whole point for a long time is about making the game run well using the logic that you don't need to render anything outside of your view.

    Thats why most of the challenge for RSI has been improving server performance as the servers are needed to handle the universe.

    DX12 does nothing useful for Nvidia right now.

    Actually CryEngine 5.5 was released September 20, 2018. It wasn't EOL at all.

    There is no evidence that Unreal was going to be a better choice.

    At the end of the day, Chris Robert's huge scope also meant that a lot of custom modifications needed to be created anyway.

    There have been no specific unreal or CryEngine updates since the kickstarter that would have made RSI's lives easier in terms of reducing the amount of custom modifications required.

    As I've said before, the entire Star Citizen Kickstarter makes promises about a future game that no current engine was capable of doing. All of it was only technically possible.

    Even today they have not yet completed what is required to make the game's vision possible, although they are getting close.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
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  16. DangerMaus

    DangerMaus Member

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    You cherry picked one of the few with a lot of tasks complete, pity that they were carried over from last year. The new flight model has been in the works for a long time.

    Network OCS stall fixes 0/10
     
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  17. Sphinx

    Sphinx Member

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    Not sure if mentioned, but I notice that their much trumpeted "Server Meshing" was pushed from 3.4 and has disappeared from all updates currently on the roadmap?
     
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  18. Nian

    Nian Member

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    They realized the huge undertaking that it requires and decided it's one of the main pillars that they will need to go full live. I think it may be one of the last things they do before beta without progression resets.
     
  19. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Actually I cherry picked something that had a lot of elements to it, that one being 144. Just to show that progress was being made even if it was delayed.

    My point is that generally features are progressing, even if they are delayed.

    Is there a particular feature that has been continually delayed with no progress? Or are you just trying to be difficult?

    The whole idea is basically the most valuable piece of engine technology in the gaming industry in my opinion (if finished successfully)

    The only other game I know that has attempted this is Dual Universe and I don't believe thats been done either.

    They could sell their own fork of the engine for a lot of money if they complete it.

    All survival/open world multiplayer games would jump on it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  20. zbone

    zbone Member

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    That's the crux of the issue for some. The proper way to tackle something that's never been done before is to build a core team of visionaries and brightest minds and have them deliver on the vision by building a specialised engine. Instead, what RSI did is they bought the shiniest and coolest toy on the market in Cryengine and then try and butcher it to squeeze a round peg in a square hole.
    It along with past history of non-delivery and scope creep screams strategical planning impotence at the top.
     
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