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Star Citizen

Discussion in 'PC Games' started by Mikuji, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    This is what instance meshing is!

    The transition between instances is clunky in Eve but no different to all MMOs currently on the market using instance meshing techniques, think stock market trading, this requires huge amounts of simultaneous communications to keep a "big picture" view of whole market at any 1 point in time, the trading houses that automate this information usually all reside withing the same building as the exchange and have fibre pipes direct to the exchanges trading platform, because the volume of data is too great to assimilate with latency.

    Games are just a data collection and interpretation engine of data, in a linear game that is easy to perdict the data changes, but in a sandbox universe anything is possible, the exchange of data is too great if the instance is to big, is the "what is the problem on a napkin" break down.

    Now, we get to the transport layer, here is an article on one of the issues https://people.kernel.org/dsahern/the-cpu-cost-of-networking-on-a-host
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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  2. Nethiuz

    Nethiuz Member

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    You can't have a second coming of something that never existed or came once.
    However i think CIG will end up implementing some butchered form of server meshing when they figure out it can't be done?, i still can't work out how Planetside 2 does it, 2000 a server with vehicles and aircraft smooth as butter. I applaud that lot.
     
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  3. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    I know what server meshing is, at least how RSI and duel universe describe it.

    I don't know if thats how it will work when its released, I hear Duel Universe is going well though.

    We aren't talking about the same thing. See here for a good example of how Duel Universe is doing it. (See from 49 seconds)



    Now I'm quite sure that the Star Citizen implementation is no where near that fancy, in particular I don't think they are planning to be able to split super small areas like that, but then again they have released very little information.


    Duel Universe is proof that it can be done. But I agree with you, I feel like it will be butchered in some way, especially at first release, and they might not be smart enough/motivated enough to improve it from there.


    Actually this is an easy question!

    They simply do most things clientside with some server side validation, for example for hit registration.

    There is an insane difference between the server power required for client side vs server side.

    An easy example if you aren't sure of the difference.

    Server Side = If you move or shoot, you won't move or shoot until your router sends the packet to their servers, and the server sends back a packet telling you that you are allowed to shoot.

    Client Side = You move and shoot, and you tell the server what you have done. If the game is coded well, there is some server side verification to stop cheating and really weird things happening due to lag etc.

    For example Battlefield used clientside registration, two laggy people will often shoot each other and both die as each player killed the other player on their screen, and then the game eventually picks up from the other players computer that you also died, even though on your screen you shouldn't have. Thats why so many people used to get to cover and die anyway.


    Anyway, the point is that MMO's need to be 100% server side because otherwise you could easily just use a memory hack to add rare items etc. Instead cheaters playing server side MMO's can only cheat via exploits/bugs in the game, and once they are patched they have to try and find a new bug.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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  4. XanaTos

    XanaTos Member

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    Described it....WOW that's amazing. All this time and no closer to hear anything about it, but I'm sure Bart will tell us how its going to work again.

    You have no idea how it works because I'm sure as shit RSI have NFI how it works as well, if they did, they would have released something by now. Cos anything good will sell more ships.
     
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  5. Penfold

    Penfold Member

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    Chris Roberts: How come we can only have 50 ships on the server at once?
    Programmers: Well that's all the engine will support
    Chris Roberts: Let's introduce "server meshing" to allow everyone to be on the server at once
    Fans: Yeh that sounds awesome
    Chris Roberts: Can you programmers implement server meshing?
    Programmers: Well that really needed to be considered when the engine was being created its a fundamental part of the engine - its not something that can just be added in.
    Chris Roberts: <crickets>
    Chris Roberts: So we are adding server meshing guys to fix everything guys. See I've added it to the roadmap.
    Fans: Yah!
    Programmers: <groan>
     
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  6. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    Again you fail to understand the fundamental networking issue and server issue.

    Main points to consider.
    1. Mass 2 way communication of data is hard, especially when everyone wants the one resource, think Australian Census debacle.
    2. Game servers constant stream of 2 way information and low latency responses do not play nice with big latency. This is still an issue today how to handle peoples from all over the world with varying latency.
    3. Game servers with 20,000 people are not MASS POPULATION SERVERS, WoW had 14M subscribers at its height, but most World servers had < 20K population and < 5K active users at any point in time, and that is the most successful MMO.
    4. Again with WoW, they have had millions of subscribers for 15+ making BILLIONS $$$, improving the netcode (network coding) if they could ditch the complexity of instancing and just have 1 big world server they would have done it by now, instead they have optimised best they can the current TCP/IP stack needed for MMO with basic interaction not complex interaction.
    5. The constant need to distribute mass world changes, sandbox events that you do need to replicated across cluster, you know sharing data of all the people on the server to give a constant experience. Doing this across a cluster of servers so that all players in the universe experience the same universe, this type of data consistency is the holy grail for many industries, then to add 2 way communications not just data collection! Again real world application would exceed revenue from selling Star Citizen!

    Instead of promising what cannot be delivered with the current hardware/TCP/IP limitations of current world computing, RSI should just focus on the game they can deliver with the currently available tech and take the egg on face, and deliver a game!
     
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  7. Nethiuz

    Nethiuz Member

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    I think i'd prefer them to at least try, even changing server cap to 100 would be nice! But it would get pretty empty once new systems arrive.
    I am in no hurry for a completed game, new things every month is interesting. Completed means no more... The bugs however are annoying, some of the worst that came with a new large patch 3.9 are being worked on right now which is good and i am sure when 4.0 drops there will be a whole host of new bugs. The 30ks are what need to be priority, a bug meh ok, a crash hauling 1 Million aUEC of Laranite in the Caterpillar makes me punch the monitor.

    This i am excited for next week.
    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...ail&utm_term=0_607785b0c2-49304844ea-29839749

     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
  8. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    What you've described makes it difficult to implement, not imposible.

    It has already been done in Dual Universe, see here for the actual event of 30,000 players at once.




    Again as I've mentioned before, they have a huge advantage as it was built from the ground up to do this, whereas RSI has taken CryEngine and modified it to suit their needs.

    This is why I've said that there is no guarantee RSI's implementation will be any good.

    I really think its a key technology for having a successful MMO space universe, the Elite Dangerous implementation was really terrible and broke the atmosphere and realism.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
  9. Penfold

    Penfold Member

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    This actually made me smile. Tell me it was intentional :)
     
  10. DangerMaus

    DangerMaus Member

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    SIMULATED PLAYERS!
    FFS

    after this long being reamed by dev's you still don't have a fucking clue!

    YOU DENSE MUPPET!

    The closest real world equivalent that has been achieved AFAIK is 1k players in a prototype that has since flopped called mavericks.

    There are plenty of "stable" oldschool MMO's that shit themselves and crash with 500-1k players per "shard". We used to crash WOW servers with an extra 100 in a hub ffs.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
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  11. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Ok, I admit that since I don't own Duel Universe, I can't comment on how well the tech actually works.

    But they do claim it does.
     
  12. DangerMaus

    DangerMaus Member

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    It says in the god damn title that it's simulated until they have 30k players pummeling their servers I call BS. There are big clusters shitting themselves at 10-15k players in fucking basic games. 30k in a single shard... FUCK NO! Were even 10% of those simulated players accessing their inventory, interacting with the environmnent, shooting each other, etc?
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
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  13. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Yes because the tech splits the shard among an unlimited amount of servers.

    There will be overhead in managing the servers but it seems like a manageable problem.

    There are plenty of videos from that that explains/shows the technology, but really its not until we play it that we'll know if it truly works.
     
  14. XanaTos

    XanaTos Member

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    Again if was so easy to do, everyone would be doing it. Stop talking crap that you clearly have NFI about and stop the guessing game.
     
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  15. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    I'm simply stating what two game developers are claiming, which is a lot more then you are doing, which is just naysaying everything for the sake of it.

    If you want to get into the technical reasons as to why you think they can't achieve it, go for it, but I'm sure thats well out of your ability based on your post history.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  16. FerrisXB9R

    FerrisXB9R Member

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    Do you have Gumby on ignore? That's already been done, Bartos.
     
  17. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Gumby is not XanaTos.

    Just because someone made an informed opinion, it doesn't mean someone else can go and give an uninformed opinion that aligns with an informed opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  18. XanaTos

    XanaTos Member

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    Like you, ignore post to suit your own engender.

    No point posting the same stuff when you're clearly just going to ignore it.
     
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  19. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    You do realise I can see your post history right?

    You have never in your entire history of this thread posted anything besides some silly comments about how this game is going to be a failure.
     
  20. Fortigurn

    Fortigurn Member

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    No, you've been making specific claims about how specific technology works, when it doesn't work that way. Insofar as you've stated what game developers are claiming, you've completely misunderstood what they said, failing to realise that "30,000 simulated players" does not mean 30,000 actual players. How you missed the word "simulated" in the title is beyond me. Additionally, you've been making claims about what RSI is doing and will do, without any evidence that this is actually what they are doing or will do (as usual).
     

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