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Strange issue with powerboard

Discussion in 'Audio Visual' started by GTR27, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. GTR27

    GTR27 Member

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    I've never had this before, but I've just (finally) tracked down a source of distortion in my home system.

    Turned it on one day and could hear distortion at even low volumes (23-25/100). Both speakers, all sources.

    Luckily I have quite a lot of gear so I could test various components out.

    Started off by unplugging speakers, and plugging another known set in (that was 100% working). Still have distortion. Cross off speakers (phew!).

    I have a amp/poweramp combo. So i disconnect the power amp and go straight from the amp. Still have distortion.

    On a hunch, I decided to plug amp straight into wall socket - bing, no distortion.

    Somehow, my "circuit protector" power board has had something borked in it, and it was making my setup sound terrible. Also going to check other devices on this circuit, to see if anything else capable of introducing noise.

    But anyway, not asking for help, just thought I'd post this up in case anyone else comes across an odd issue like this.
     
    l_ QuadX_l and JSmithDTV like this.
  2. Copie

    Copie Member

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    Dirty power, not that uncommon, I had a similar issue causing speakers to pop whenever the fridge motor kicked in
     
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  3. Haillion

    Haillion Member

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    Belkin have got a range of powerboard designed to be used on av equipment. I bought one recently and it makes an audible click when it's doing something to clean up the power.
     
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  4. Hater

    Hater Member

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    don't the super audiophiles run all their stuff off a UPS for this reason? not for backup power in the event of a power failure, but because the UPS gives out clean power no matter what the input power from the grid is like, and a lot of the audiophiles also have solar panels so sometimes they have solar in, other times grid in etc etc

    wait

    maybe we should sell "audiophile grade" power conditioning UPS's for $99,999 each

    hmm
     
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  5. Haillion

    Haillion Member

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    One could sink a lot of coin into this dirty power thing. I was surprised at how often one outlet at my place fell below the threshold of stable power. It must be doing damage over time though.

    I suppose if someone invested a lot of time and effort into their av setup an ups or similar, if it were the right one, would be the cornerstone for protecting the investment.
     
  6. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    Don't try to create clean power from a poor power source using a power filter... fix the power.

    If the range of voltage varies too much your power company is obliged to rectify same, FWIR it's +10% and -15% or so.

    Phase issues, DC offset, EMI etc. can all affect power quality and create audiable issues in audio systems.

    Cheap $2 powerboards are rubbish and are of poor quality most of the time... doesn't need to be some $300 monster brand, but get a decent surge protected power board that is individully switched for each socket and has a low clamping voltage and fast response time etc. These boards also need replacing now and then and immediately after any surge event that triggers it, so ones with a light indicating if the MOV is still functional are handy.


    JSmith
     
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  7. OP
    OP
    GTR27

    GTR27 Member

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    Yeah in a rental currently, so have been considering looking at a UPS. Problem is though, something that could supply big power isnt cheap ($600-1k) which seems a little expensive for occasional listening :lol: Might get a lower spec one and make sure im not cranking it. Power amp supposed to be capable of ~460w / channel at 0.2% THD 8 Ohm (and 725w/ch 4 ohm) and power supply requests 10A input minimum. I think i'd be fine getting something that was capable of 600w total - as im unlikely to draw that power continuous (plus I'm pretty sure neighbours would complain)

    EDIT: I love the sell it to audiophiles with a badge idea though. Seen some crazy stuff, just need to put some exotic metal that makes people believe in synergy or something to "justify" the price
     
  8. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    The munted do... spend plenty of dough on them too. Aparantly brands like APC are not audiophily enough. :lol:

    A UPS can introduce other problems while trying to solve one... as mentioned there is no need if the issue with the supply is rectified.

    If power is still "dirty" have an electrician install proper surge and filter at the circuit box.


    JSmith
     
  9. Hi-end Head

    Hi-end Head Member

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    Here we go, Power boards, Lighting strike prevention, Clean Power eliminators, Yudda,Yudda, Yudda.

    If only the colorful descriptions promoting the products actually stood up to a lighting strike, or really cleaned the power supply.. Which of cause is impossible to prove or disprove. It really comes down to what your prepared to spend. Spend a lot and of cause it must work a lot better then a cheap one.

    Don't kid yourselves, The products from Bunnings or JB are simply multi socket boards, and won't prevent a lighting strike attack on your audio /HT systems. Sure they claim a guarantee program of replacement products IF there power board failed. Frankly I don't know of anyone who lodged a successful claim.. You will get a better response from a household insurance policy. BUT if you go that way, insist that they except a list of products [ model,make, serial numbers ] you wish to be covered. Or you might find that a high-end product is being replaced with a $29 CD Player

    Power conditioners, come in a range of prices from Audience and Shunyata starting from $600 US up to $6000+ US. Most are simply multi socket boards in a fancy case, with an equally fancy descriptions of there capability. Yes folks it's a mine field and like a lot of other products that claim to improve the sound, from special radio activated screened sand,for loading into your speaker stands. To RCA Caps, with wondrous descriptions

    . I quote,,, Pop these RCA shorting plugs into your pre-amplifier's unused inputs and you'll hear a blacker background, more micro-dy-namic detail and an over all cleaner sound. All for $60 for 12.

    I won't go into silver Fuses at fifty bucks a time, or high quality wall outlets at $280 a time, and not forgetting Voo-Doo Iso-Pod Isolation Systems at hundred bucks each
     
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  10. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    Oh hell no... would require an external lighting arrestor. No power board is going to stop direct lighting! :lol:


    JSmith
     
  11. Hi-end Head

    Hi-end Head Member

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    If your talking Power amps, with or without a stand alone Pre, then $1000 is cheap

    As you haven't supplied make or model numbers it's impossible to comment

    High output figures don't relate to high volumes,it relates to Headroom. May I ask what brand / type of speakers are you using. that require 600 watts before clipping.
     
  12. cvidler

    cvidler Member

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    Most UPS's out there do NOTHING for power while the mains is live. They only kick in when the mains goes out - so called 'line interactive' UPSs. These are the cheaper models. When testing one, you'll hear it noticably "click" then start humming, as the mains relay is switched out, and the inverter starts up.

    If you want the output to be clean power all the time, you need a 'online' or 'dual-conversion*' UPS. These are much more expensive. these ones have no clicks, and the inverter hum is always there. (oh yeah, you'll want it in another room).


    *that's the hint, converts the incoming mains to DC, charges the battery, and via the output inverter converts the DC back to 240v.
     
  13. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    [​IMG]

    :cool:


    JSmith
     
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  14. Hi-end Head

    Hi-end Head Member

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    come on "Smithy" your better then that.....

    In digital and analog audio, headroom refers to the amount by which the signal-handling capabilities of an audio system exceed a designated nominal level. Headroom can be thought of as a safety zone allowing transient audio peaks to exceed the nominal level without damaging the system or the audio signal, e.g., via clipping.
     
  15. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    Mate was having a joke about the word headroom, as in Max Headroom... c'mon, you don't need to bloody school me on audio headroom! :lol:

    I agree with you not disagree.


    JSmith
     
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  16. OP
    OP
    GTR27

    GTR27 Member

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    Sorry, the $600-1k was for a UPS / conditioner, not the power amp.

    I have a wyred 4 sound ST-1000 https://wyred4sound.com/products/power-amps/stereo/st-mkii-series (you have to select a drop down to select the ST1000, it defaults to the 500)

    eau de humanity, a Class D amp..... But I got it for a good price and have had it a few years now. Using a marantz SR1508 as the pre-amp at this stage because our low line TV unit cant fit a normal sized amp, and wife doesnt want a hifi rack killing the looks of the room (hence why I havent bought a "proper" pre yet). Power has XLR inputs, but Marantz only uses RCA's.

    Speakers are Ascension (Adelaide speakers) Timberwolves with 360w RMS power handling. I certainly dont need either a) power handling that high b) an amp with that much effective "headroom" - i'd be flat out using 50-100wpc for 95% of listening.

    All my cables are custom made, ultrasonic welded one from http://www.bluejeanscable.com/ who make great cables at decent prices. (Speaker wires use decent banana plugs to make connections a piece of cake). RCA's shielded ones from same site. 4K capable HDMI leads from that site too.

    Sadly I my problem has not been fixed, but I do believe it is relating to signal / power. Going to pull gear out on weekend, and test with different points to see if that circuit is worse than the others. I've got plenty of spare gear (Including an old nakamichi amp, cables and other speakers) that I can test with / eliminate components.

    Im confident its not the speakers as ive never heard of both going at the same time (normally one driver would fail, not all drivers both speakers) and shot speakers sound different.

    I also dont think its the power amp - the thing is built like a tank and has always been moved / transported in its proper box, and well looked after. AC is on all the time in house, so never gets hot (and Class D run cool anyway, being so efficient). Marantz is only ~2yo so shouldnt be the issue either (and when I tested last time, still had same noise from its internal amp outputs).

    Going to check where power cables running behind TV and clean all that stuff up too. Its a pain in the arse though, because I have a 65" OLED TV on a huge low line cabinet, and the two mains are huge and a massive pain in the arse to move. Almost need to move whole setup out, clean up cabling, then move it back.

    le sigh.
     
  17. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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  18. OP
    OP
    GTR27

    GTR27 Member

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    No, sounds like distortion. No hum or buzz (i.e. no signal, turn up volume, nothing)

    Can only hear it when playing music. Almost sounds like a radio station out of tune (note, not testing with FM radio). Also going to check my chromecast audio in case that's shit itself.

    EDIT: Will check that also though
     
  19. Hi-end Head

    Hi-end Head Member

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    Thanks for the info,,, Not really a fan of Class D amplification , Not that there's anything wrong with it. Wired for Sound make a fine product. But not for me, There very comparable to Bel Canto

    While the Marantz [[used as a pre-amp ]] probably does a satisfying job, keep your eye's open for a dedicated Pre, While new models are expensive, used / traded stuff is sometimes available, this is a good place to start HTTPS://www.aussieaudiomart.com/classifieds/1-preamplifiers/
    Emotiva PT100 are less then $1000

    I have a pair of Marantz MA6100 monoblocks, running through a Bob Carver Pre, at the moment, as well as three other systems.

    Don't get to wound up about power handling figures of speakers. Most of it's bull dust, and should be ignored. Unless your looking at speakers at 2 ohm and below. I've seen and heard large floorstanders run of Tube amps with a 25 watt output. And you would never know.
     
  20. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    I know what you mean and why... but just for others reading, Class D amps have improved drastically.

    This is from 4 years ago too... have heard some amazing sounding class d amps that I wouldn't have expected to be so good;

    https://audiophilereview.com/cd-dac-digital/why-well-soon-be-living-in-a-class-d-world.html


    JSmith
     

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