The C64 (and other 8-bit Commodore machines) thread.

Discussion in 'Retro & Arcade' started by lupin, Nov 8, 2014.

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What 8-bit Commodore machines do you have in your collection?

  1. Commodore KIM-1

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Commodore PET/CBM

    2 vote(s)
    2.3%
  3. Commodore CBM-II (B128/B256/128-80/256-80/500/600/610/700)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Commodore MAX

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Commodore VIC-20

    9 vote(s)
    10.5%
  6. Commodore 64 (The older brown fat model known as the "Breadbin")

    44 vote(s)
    51.2%
  7. Commodore 64C (The newer beige slim model)

    40 vote(s)
    46.5%
  8. Commodore 64GS

    1 vote(s)
    1.2%
  9. Commodore SX-64

    5 vote(s)
    5.8%
  10. Commodore Educator 64

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. Commodore 16

    4 vote(s)
    4.7%
  12. Commodore 116 (Cost-reduced version of the C16 sold only in Europe)

    1 vote(s)
    1.2%
  13. Commodore Plus/4

    5 vote(s)
    5.8%
  14. Commodore 128

    8 vote(s)
    9.3%
  15. Commodore 128D

    9 vote(s)
    10.5%
  16. Commodore 128DCR (Cost-reduced and bug-corrected version of the C128D)

    2 vote(s)
    2.3%
  17. Commodore Prototype/Unreleased (C65/C900/LCD/Other)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  18. Commodore Emulator - I don't have real Commodore 8-bit machines anymore :(

    13 vote(s)
    15.1%
  19. Commodore Emulator - I've never seen/owned real Commodore 8-bit machines, but wish I did!

    2 vote(s)
    2.3%
  20. Commodore Remake - FPGA or similar modern day implementation

    2 vote(s)
    2.3%
  21. Commodore Candy - I thought Commodore was a car model...?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    Anti-Microsoft Easter Egg Hidden In C64 BASIC



    Published on Oct 28, 2019


    JSmith
     
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  2. HyRax1

    HyRax1 ¡Viva la Resolutión!

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  3. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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  4. power

    power Member

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  5. HyRax1

    HyRax1 ¡Viva la Resolutión!

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    That's just a modded 64 for doing music. The "R" probably stands for "Rave". :cool:

    The keycaps are custom too - they change waveform, balance, etc. There's even two TRS jacks on the back, which no C64 ever came out with.
     
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  6. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    Indeed it does... :leet:


    JSmith
     
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  7. Franc

    Franc Member

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  8. Ratzz

    Ratzz Member

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    I keep meaning to properly check out an old friends rig he has stashed in his flat under a blanket. Its complete, with peripherals, boxes and a tape drive, manuals etc, and hasn't seen the light of day for at least 30 years AFAIK. He was given it by a well meaning friend, he has never used a PC in his life and he is 84 now, its never going to get used. He's somewhat of a hoarder :lol:

    I'm pretty sure its the early version of the 64, but I'd have to look closer and check. Are these worth anything?
     
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  9. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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  10. Ratzz

    Ratzz Member

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    Yeah. I see the asking price for that rather ratty looking rig, but an asking price doesn't always represent the true value. I see that one is the C too, I'm pretty sure his is the older fatter model. Brownish if memory serves me.

    What would be seen as good value adding? Lack of discolouring, included peripherals, whether it actually functions properly, original boxes, original monitor? I've only really glanced at the thing so far, but it clearly has a keyboard and mouse, a tape drive, a monitor that is certainly period correct but not sure if its the original or not. All look pretty clean and decent colour. I didn't notice a disk drive but for all I know there is one there. NFI if there are any games or other software. I'll have to have a look.

    It wouldn't have seen the light of day for 25-30 years from what he tells me. I might get him to dig it all out, he is a good friend, he may even just give it to me :D He doesn't need any cash, the hard part will be getting him to part with it. Its not that he needs or wants it, he is just a hoarder - hates to let things go.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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  12. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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  13. MUTMAN

    MUTMAN Member

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    Ratzz be very careful if you power up the old C64, the psu is likely toast.
    search for things to check before powering up or tricks to build yr own
     
  14. Ratzz

    Ratzz Member

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    Yeah if I can pry it out of his hoarding hands, I'll update on exactly what it is, what it has, and post some pix before I even attempt to do anything about firing it up. If it actually turns out to be something desirable the last thing I'll want to do is damage it.

    From what he tells me, someone gave it to him 30 years ago and its remained in its boxes unused ever since. He wouldn't even know how to switch it on, I only knew he had it when I caught a glimpse of it under a blanket in his flat amongst a bunch of other stuff.

    I'm not really into retro, if it turns out to be something worth having I'll probably get some opinions from you guys and move it on either here or on fleabay, to someone who will appreciate it more.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  15. Vanne

    Vanne Member

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    Elvis, any idea if this will be similar to running composite through RetroTink2X , if the results are better than that, I might go for this mod. 50euros for good screen-idge is within the budget.
     
  16. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Long winded nerdy answer (what did you expect?), but bear with me...

    The Commodore 64's video chip (the VIC-II) generated a native Y/C signal (where Y is essentially black and white TV - luma/brightness plus sync, and C is the chroma or colour without brightness or sync) on-chip. The best signal you can get out of that natively is S-Video (itself Y/C pins with ground on each). Merging these together in a single cable gives you the common CVBS (Common Broadcast Video System) or composite video signal. The colour encoding for this will be something like YIQ (NTSC) or YUV (PAL), both of which are unique but similar in design to YPbPr ("component video"), differing only slightly in where a few points are defined mathematically. Unlike more modern systems, the C64 doesn't generate pictures internally in RGB colour space.

    Sadly crosstalk on the chip results is the classic wavy lines you see on the C64's output, which make it notably worse looking by default than other good quality S-Video out you might be used to in consoles like the SNES. Mods like the "LumaFix" attempts to dial back voltages and fix this crosstalk.

    This new C64 video mod sounds more like the NES-RGB. Similar to the C64, the NES generates YIQ/YUV signals on chip (not using RGB internally, and combining luma/chroma/sync on chip), so even getting S-Video out of it is impossible. The NES-RGB mod hijacks the signals sent to the PPU (Picture Processing Unit) digitally, and converts these to the RGB colour space. While these things should be well defined, in practice the conversion leaves some room for subjectivity, so the resulting colours generated by the NES-RGB can sometimes be a little off, requiring a "palette" to be loaded, which is in actuality a colour adjustment, similar to an ICC profile you'd load in an image editing program, to "shift" certain colours about.

    https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/
    http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

    So this new C64 mod hijacks the raw digital signal within the chip, sends it to an FPGA, re-assembles it as either a YPbPr or RGsB signal (both analogue - odd that they aren't including digital HDMI/DVI), and pushes it out the door. (Odd also that nobody made a NES-RGB type mod that spat out YPbPr now that I think about it, but anyhoo).

    What will the quality be like? Well I can only speculate as I haven't seen it in action, but I would assume if the original signal uses standard YUV colour space, it could be broken down easily (i.e.: with minimal colour shifting) to YPbPr and generate a "close to perfect" colour quality. RGsB should be a direct conversion, but I wonder if it'll suffer the same issue as the NES-RGB where it needs to load palettes to tweak the final colours.

    Either way, the sheer video quality, ignoring colour, should be far better than a RetroTink or OSSC, as it's hijacking a digital signal and not suffering the Luma crosstalk common in the C64. It should even be noticeably better than a C64 with LumaFix mod. But again, I'm waiting on technical reviews to objectively compare the colours (i.e.: with a colour probe on screen, as well as a oscilloscope on the signal itself) to get a complete answer on the colour part.

    With that said, C64+LumaFix+S-Video would be miles ahead already of a C64 without LumaFix using composite. Much like on, say, the SNES, the jump from Composite to S-Video is huge, and the jump from there to RGB is noticeable but less dramatic, I think if you've already gone to the efforts to get the best picture you can today out of your C64, this mod might not be that dramatic. However if you're running a stock, unmodded C64, it will be night and day.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  17. Vanne

    Vanne Member

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    Thx Elvis for the exellent explination (as per the use :) i am kinda on a decision street here as i am looking for a 1571 or a 1541-II to replace the busted drive in my 128D, but not sure i wanna go crazy and spend like 200 US on fixing the bloody thing when i probably wont even use the drive other than knowing it works fine.. (one part of me says rip out the internal 1571 in my 128 and chuck it, replace it with the SD2IEC ive got lying around.

    I could always fix the drive later (but probably wouldent as i know how my projects go).. i guess id need to know what the porimary use for the 128 would be? it will be most pre-dominatly for character animation (sprite based) and basic/added ML sub routines programming. Which i am still on the bloody fence abouyt as the screen output (miune is stock) is shit to say the least... hence my question about the lumiafix vs the new video fix. (which i wish would have come with a direct HDMI out, that woulkd have sorted me out straight away)

    at any rate, it would be nice to have both drives working on my 128D, loading sprites from floppy into memory is what i used to do and even though i guess it would work with the SD2IEC, ive never done so. (ive never even connect/used the SD2IEC ive had for over a year)

    really wish i had the real estate to keep the 128 set up permantly, and not just set it up for a diagnosing session and then pack it all away before the missus and kids get home (cos there is crap and screws everywhere), I know youve got kids Elvis, how do you managed that? I dont mind then playing with the stuff, even promote it, but its hard to leave stuff in one place when the whole thing is open and there is stuff (read screws and crap) everywhere...

    getting back to the sprite stuff, these days i design my sprites on PeeCee anyways, so maybe the SD2IEC is the better way to go? Not sure, probably too many options..

    and then there is the 64C i have, which is nicely maxed out, with jiffy dos etc.. 1541, works perfectly, but also has the same shitty screen output. Id probably like to use the 128D, as i prefer the form factor and having the 128 mode is also a bonus.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  18. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Mine are a bit older now (12, 13, 18). No more worrying about safety, and they all enjoy gaming with me.

    It was tough going when they were younger. But all good now. :)
     
  19. Vanne

    Vanne Member

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    Hmm, i got that wrong, its not 50 euros, the board itself is 100 euros and installation is 50 euros.. fuck!! thats kinda steep!.

    might buy the lumafix128 then...

    edit, will the Lumafix64 fit on the 128? or will i have to buy the specific lumafix128? its like dubble the price.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  20. Vanne

    Vanne Member

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    just bought the C128 CR video upgrade kit 2 ram chips/2 sockets. Small birthday pressie to myself. :D
     
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