The Great Big NBN Sticky Thread

Discussion in 'Networking, Telephony & Internet' started by Akh-Horus, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. [SweN]

    [SweN] Member

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    as I've mentioned previously, people have been experiencing issues with installs in my area, due to poor workmanship, and some other errors occurring somehow in the way towers are allocated. Some installers take the time to correct these errors at install, as they are familiar with the area and know the process to get the tower allocation corrected. Others do not, and simply follow the work order. This results in some customers being allocated a tower with a far higher number of users, and a much greater or poorer LOS, resulting in what appears to be intermittent connection issues and slower speeds due to overall lower connection quality. ISP then trots out the usual "we have no control over the limitation of the technology" and considers the matter closed.

    Customers continue to be connected to a tower located 5+ k's away, when their area is actually serviced by a new tower less than 1k away.

    There is also an issue with records somehow. Many people continue to be denied a connection, with ISP's claiming there is no service in their area, despite their direct neighbour having recently been connected to a new tower commissioned almost 12 months ago.

    I realise the structure behind all of this dictates this is an ISP problem, and not an NBN problem, but at the end of the day NBN wants / needs as many customers to transition over as possible, as soon as possible, to get the money rolling in. Would it not make sense for NBN to develop a process to better understand the problems being encountered by end users / customers? In my area alone at least 60% of potential customers that could be connected have either been denied for incorrect reasons, or have now become too scared to transition due to the issues encountered by other customers in the area.
     
  2. cvidler

    cvidler Member

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    From nbn's own advertising


    "we get it right nearly 9 times out of ten" so less than 90% on 100,000 installs per month. 10,000+ fuckups per month.
    good job guys
     
  3. caspian

    caspian Member

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    then report the issue via the correct channels (your RSP), as opposed to trying to work around it. this gets any root issue identified and fixed, not just dodged on individual instances, leaving it to potentially happen again.

    if individual techs do indeed have workmanship issues, then this is captured via rework tracking that's been in place for years. attempting to bypass the system prevents it from working and perpetuates any problem that may exist.

    tower and cell allocation is in no way controlled or done by the tech, it's done as part of a centralised planning process long before the TOW is issued. there are plenty of reasons other than simple proximity to the tower that govern allocation, such as coverage footprint, terrain, foliage, known local interference, local frequency availability, uptake rates, cell capacity and augmentation plans.

    if the tech can't get an acceptable signal and throughput test on the day, it's not his decision as to what happens, either. the tech calls central planning and advises non-go, and they and they only make the decision to replan or cancel. ultimately the install must hit minimum targets for signal quality and throughput performance, both of which are documented and recorded for provenance purposes on the day, so there is no question that the service isn't working correctly when the install is booked off.

    I might add that one of my roles was supervising this process for about 18 months including daily review of all failures, cancellations and escalations, so I know it pretty well.

    see above. this has nothing to do with the on-the-day tech, and nor is physical proximity the sole determining factor in tower selection.

    that is again nothing to do with the tech. any error, if there is one, is about a dozen steps before a tech gets assigned... it would be before the design and assign process even took place, in the order stage. the access seeker needs to work with NBN if they think the service class for the address is incorrect, there is a process and resource set specifically designed for that very situation. I've seen it used many times so I know it's there and working, so the question is why don't the access seekers use it if they think there is an issue, and can demonstrate it?

    you're making the error of thinking that NBN is the commonality to blame these issues on. that might be convenient but that's all it is. it's probably a tempting outcome from "outside the box" with no visibility of what's happening inside, but a whole lot of very smart people spent a long time getting the system to the point where it is now, and it works fine as long as people use it as intended, and don't apply their own self-defined expectations of what it's supposed to achieve.
     
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  4. r8response

    r8response Member

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    Now that FTTC is a deployed reality, is there any plans to retrofit/upgrade RFS FTTN areas to FTTC?
     
  5. caspian

    caspian Member

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    generally no.

    in the future it would potentially be an upgrade path if the copper should deteriorate past the point of viable maintenance.
     
  6. isaakk

    isaakk Member

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    Welp. After finally booking the final tech visit to flick the switch from ADSL to FttN, they never showed up. Not at all surprised. Add in the fact that Telstra sent us a confirmation of service commencement email for an ADSL service we've had for 6 years now (included all the PPPoE details, gateway etc), instead of the NBN confirmation, one wonders why bother even sticking with them.
     
  7. supasaiyan

    supasaiyan Member

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    if you're having issues with your install, send me a pm with your order # and contact number. I'll get someone to case manage it (if it isn't already) and give you a call back
     
  8. caspian

    caspian Member

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    why do you? you're not locked to them any more, there are plenty of alternative providers with a wide range of choice in value/plans/features, they're certainly not the cheapest or best, on a scale of 1 to 10 their customer service is at about the level of the sludge at the bottom of a primordial peat bog, and they manage their network and retail offerings for the Fisher-Price grade consumer who is brought to a dead halt by the idea of plugging a modem in.

    I can't think why *anyone* would use them any more given the slightest opportunity, when my estate gets cut over I'll happily pay more *not* to be stuck with them.
     
  9. TRG.dOinK

    TRG.dOinK Member

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    10% to me is pretty good, while 10,000 sounds a lot, the other 90,000 is OK.
    I don't see the issue, of course 0% is the aim, but its not anything out of the ordinary.
     
  10. caspian

    caspian Member

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    I don't think 9 times out of 10 is much to brag about really. :(
     
  11. callan

    callan Member

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    a 9/10 strike rate is pretty bloody awful, frankly. Translate it to something like: 1 in 10 power connections to houses don't work. If you buy a new washing machine there's a 10 percent chance it won't work.

    Nah - that's fucking pathetic.

    Callan
     
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  12. TRG.dOinK

    TRG.dOinK Member

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    Every bought products in bulk from a manufacturer? Then you'll know there's a % for an acceptable rate of failure and they are classified as either minor or major defects.

    I know its different comparing goods to a telecommunications company, but considering the size of the project, the differing technologies, the amount of staff, along with having to work with existing infrastructure, its very unrealistic to have zero issues.

    And 9/10 does not equate to = "wont work". It would also include intermittent issues due to interference, noise, outages, performance woes etc, just like any appliance which may have minor issue.

    I honestly think NBN need to be given some slack. It wasn't ideal to re-use 1930's infrastructure for the year 2018 along with having so many different MTM in use, however that's not NBNs fault, you can point the blame squarely at the PM for making it more complicated.

    Ideally if NBN wasn't around many would still be stuck on ADSL2+ so when you look at the big picture, life isn't that bad.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  13. caspian

    caspian Member

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    I live in a world of testing, defects, MTBF and acceptable failure rates. from my point of view 10% is poor in terms of a product delivered to the customer. defects should be identified beforehand, especially when every product delivered is hand installed.

    the choice to use the current technology was definitely political, but there is no need for that to impact the outcome from a quality perspective. it just means it takes longer and costs more. if the expectation was for quality, low cost *and* on time then that's not possible regardless how much people talk about it.

    [edit] regardless, I still wouldn't have claimed 9/10 as a measure of success in a video designed to be consumed by Joe Average.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  14. caspian

    caspian Member

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  15. Rubberband

    Rubberband Member

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    So I'm now waiting for the NBN to acknowledge I have an issue and recheck the cable. I'm having daily drop outs and the speed has gone from 70 to 50. AussieBB have worked their arses off to help me and I've now done everything the NBN have asked us with no change. As the problems are intermittent unless I get an issue raised at the right time the NBN can refuse to check the cable.

    So far:
    - Replaced the router
    - Replaced the cables
    - Paid to have a new cable run to replace the existing phone cable (which did improve the line but not the dropouts)
    - Raised about 10 tickets with NBN (via AussieBB) since the install date as they close the fuckers within 48 hours, all of which have been pushed back to me to fix or have not had the right data to escalate

    I have also been advised that unless there are 5 or more dropouts within a 24 hour period then NBN can class the line as stable. They will only accept data from 3 consecutive days too. I contacted AussieBB a couple of days later than I intended after a really bad day and was told I'd have 103 dropouts in 24 hours, but as it was 5 days ago, NBN wouldn't accept that data and said my line was stable.

    Essentially, there are no escalation points except via AussieBB unless I go to my MP. If I go to the TIO, it will go against AussieBB not NBN. There are no direct routes, except for complaining on social media, which will get the issue escalated by NBN and they are making it incredibly hard to get even get a very legitimate fault fixed.

    Very very frustrating, especially when this is for my home business.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  16. c4dderly

    c4dderly Member

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    I got my NBN appointment (with Telstra) this morning but so far nothing.... hope it gets done today as I am sick of my crappy ADSL.
     
  17. caspian

    caspian Member

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    the speed alone is not a fault condition. the dropouts *may* be depending on circumstances.

    yes, that is correct. it's just DSL, it drops out sometimes as transmission conditions change. that's normal and no different from any other form of DSL in the world.

    that is not a limitation that NBN imposes.

    this is where people start talking about different things and applying self-defined expectations. ABB have no way of telling how many times the line has dropped out, period. what they are describing is dropouts of the *login session*, which they are pulling off their RADIUS server. NBN don't assure to that standard, they provide a layer 2 connection comprised of a layer 1 copper line running a DSL modulation network link carrying a layer 2 data path. what they are looking at is drops of the DSL layer. if the DSL is not going down, then ABB are wasting everyone's time by reporting a dropout fault, because it's not a dropout in terms of the product they have purchased, and they should understand that.

    your only escalation point should be your ISP. you're not NBN's customer, ever. your ISP is NBN's customer, and they they should be escalating any issues with your service on your half effectively, which also includes defining them properly! if your ISP isn't doing that, that's precisely what the TIO route is for - to make the service provider do their job.
     
  18. c4dderly

    c4dderly Member

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    tech arrived... FTTN NBN activated.

    Maximum Line rate
    43.32 Mbps 99.92 Mbps
    Line Rate
    40 Mbps 97.14 Mbps
     
  19. Rubberband

    Rubberband Member

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    I appreciate your response, but you're approaching this as a tech, not a customer. I've been using DSL for almost 2 decades, and every fault I've had has been rigorously analysed and tested by me and was always resolved once Telstra got off their fat arses and examined the copper.

    Even if it's due to something which NBN can't specifically control, such as coexistence from legacy services, it's still the NBN who is accountable for its implementation, not ABB, so NBN should provide a suitable response not just shut the ticket and say it's stable when it quite clearly isn't.

    To me, a regular interruption to the service is not acceptable with this frequency of dropouts, and the NBN has an SLA which is what ABB have reported to me (wish I'd written down the name of the document, which is public domain apparently). If the SLA cannot be maintained which is what ABB are stating is occuring but the tickets keep getting closed, then, of course, the NBN is at fault, not ABB.

    I've been in I.T. a long time, I know how support systems work. My impression is that the NBN has set its tolerances nice and low to reduce the cost of sending techs out to check and fix copper. I understand that there are a number of variables between where the copper enters the house, but there needs to be some sort of protection for people who are suffering due to potentially poor cabling or some numbnuts techy with only 4 weeks training screwing something up (I've had a number of anecdotes over the past couple of months which are face desk worthy).

    It's important that people are aware prior to sign-up that they could potentially experience issues and be asked to pay for new routers or cabling which may not resolve the issue and be left with no recourse. I was forced to switch routers and put the new cable in, on NBNs instructions via ABB. Being hundreds of dollars out of pocket with no resolution for something which is clearly outside of an ISPs ability to fix is not the way to build support for NBN and neither is passing the buck back to the ISP when they have no control of the infrastructure.

    TLDR: How the tech works is irrelevant to the end user when it isn't providing the service to an acceptable standard, they are being asked/forced to pay additional $$$ and no reason for the ongoing fault is supplied.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  20. caspian

    caspian Member

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    I can see your point, but you also need to understand that self-set expectations don't drive reality.

    and that's an example. NBN assure to the standards of the product they deliver, not something above and beyond that. I'll also point out that tickets only get closed if the access seeker accepts the outcome... or if the access seeker doesn't respond to ticket resolution within 2 business days. if you're in IT you understand the concepts of measured resolution time and the requirement for the customer to respond to requests for further information in a reasonable period of time.

    and again that's a self-defined expectation.

    there is an SLA, but it applies to product NBN supply, not every single component of your end to end connection. NBN are going to resolve the ticket if the component of the service they are responsible for is not apparently at fault.

    then with all due respect, I'd really expect you to understand the above better, and think like a tech too and not just a customer.

    there is. it's called the TIO. they keep your ISP honest, who in turn keep on NBN's back and escalate using the pathways they have available if they are not getting the response they think is appropriate to the situation. there's no need to invent a new solution, use the one that's there.
     

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