The Great Big NBN Sticky Thread

Discussion in 'Networking, Telephony & Internet' started by Akh-Horus, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. caspian

    caspian Member

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    costs will always be the end user's problem. the NBN was told to run at cost + profit margin. costs flow directly through to service pricing.

    as someone with a very, very good visibility of the build and completion timeline - wanna bet?
     
  2. MELso76

    MELso76 Member

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    The issue is not use over the month, but use between 7-11PM (typically) because the vast bulk of data on NBN is used for video streaming these days.

    If the user with 100GB uses it to stream an hour of 4K video in the early evening every few days at the same time as the heavy user is trying to stream 4K, then the RSP has to provision enough CVC to accommodate both users (~20mbps per user, obviously assuming and hoping that no-one else uses the connection), even though due to the quota the 100GB user probably won't use their connection much the rest of the time.

    This means that, far from being a usage charge, the RSP has to pass the cost of the CVC on to the 100GB user in pretty much equal measure to the 'download the net' unlimited user, thereby making low usage plans more expensive than they need be, and higher usage unlimited plans cheaper...
     
  3. caspian

    caspian Member

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    but they still use that data over the whole month, each evening. regardless of how you allocate data allowance, most people go to work during the day.

    I don't see how NBN moving to a usage based service model changes that. people are still going to use the same amount of data, and the network still has to be able to carry the same bandwidth at peak to keep everyone happy, even when it's only used for a relatively brief period per day. the network cost money to build to a designed capacity, minor power usage aside the network costs the same to have there whether it's at 100% capacity or idle.


    not to my point of view, because by rationing data allowance, the RSP controls how long that user can use data for, and CVC dimensioning is a function of aggregate peak data usage. yes, I take the point that it's not a direct control on peak aggregate bandwidth, but it is an indirect control. Mr download-the-net won't waste their data usage during peak period if they don't have data to waste, do down goes aggregate peak. or just go back to the perfectly valid idea of on-peak/off-peak data plans, to encourage people who can schedule usage to do so, and make use of the CVC capacity that is unused outside peak hour.

    either way, it's still not going to lower retail costs for users above the average point. user-pays will increase that. and any data allowance cost per GB or whatever would simply be worked out as the total operating cost of the network, plus government defined ROI, divided by total number of GB transferred by all users. so you're still going to be paying for the network to be there, even when you're not using it. same concept as power companies charging an access charge and a usage charge.
     
  4. th3_hawk

    th3_hawk Member

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    Funnily enough, built on at least 1/3 of Telstra v1.0.

    HA! We must be one of the last suburbs in the country then... Ours is still planned to be available from Apr-Jun 2020*, although we are at least "Build commenced" now which is a step forward. I just hope we aren't delivered a Friday Car... (more than the rest of the network anyway :p )
     
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  5. pepsimax

    pepsimax Member

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    what is completed in your eyes? a report from the government saying it is all done - yet with 50% of the households not having been connected?

    or not needing to upgrade major sections of the network basically pretty much as soon as the report has been read out in press conference?

    they have 6 months to complete it and they will probably then do a trick 'na na we mention end of FOY 2020 (June 2021), not june 2020"

    id love to be a reported and ask "so the LNP have delivered the NBN MTM, but why is it almost $30 billion over budget?" the image on his face would be priceless and would become one of those watch as they die inside moments
     
  6. caspian

    caspian Member

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    completed is a milestone in the project, not an absolute statement. it's more a paint-the-Sydanee-harbour-bridge concept, than building a house where it's considered to be completed when the builder hands over the keys and walks away.

    upgrades and maintenance will go on forever as the network evolves, it's a very simplistic point of view to think otherwise.
     
  7. pepsimax

    pepsimax Member

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    were the upgrades and maintenance costs in that $29.5 Billion statement from Abbott & Turnbull?
     
  8. koopz

    koopz Member

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    as Caspian said..

    "completion is a milestone - not an absolute statement."

    Sure, you might think this as an IT project - a very important one.

    The NBN should have been completed by now with FTTH.

    However, the Govt went another way, and now here we are.


    NBN is not an IT project. I used to think it was.


    Clock off, stop thinking like you are still at work and look again.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  9. callan

    callan Member

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    I suggest not laying into Caspian over the NBN MTM. He has to play the cards he is dealt, and has been more than patient here. He can't change the remit given him, but does a damn lot of good here.

    Yes the MTM sux. I paid damn near 12 grand just to slip it's woefully unreliable clutches. Reluctantly, though even I have to concede it is infinitely better than the Telstra/ Optus HFC duopoly, and ADSL2 fiasco, with its "no ports available in your exchange", oh you're on a rim:no internet for you train wreck where on a good day you might get a max of 20mbit. More likely 12 or so.

    So many of us have such short memories...

    Callan
     
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  10. caspian

    caspian Member

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    thanks, callan. from a personal perspective I would also rather a full FTTP build, but as you allude - that's not my decision.
     
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  11. 999Warrior

    999Warrior Member

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    At least this part has been retained with the NBN. Cause that was so crappy before. Although if they give you skymuster in a metro area you are gonna not be very happy.

    I recently was curiously looking at TPG FTTB but not to change to as I prefer my current NBN plan at the moment.

    For some reason it was no longer available at my address despite getting letters. So I curiously decided to call them up. I was told by TPG that there were "no ports currently available at the moment". Eventually it was available again but still.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
  12. caspian

    caspian Member

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    that would be a shortage of TPG's own FTTB ports, not TPG resold NBN. NBN provisions *more* ports than serviceable premises, this is not Telstra over again.
     
  13. 999Warrior

    999Warrior Member

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    Yes that is part of my point with the NBN we at least don't have to put up with this crap anymore. However, what I am trying to say is other providers continue to do this.
     
  14. caspian

    caspian Member

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    it makes no sense for TPG to overprovision ports. I don't have any experience with their hardware, but it looks like 32-port slots. they need to sell a certain proportion of those before it's worth installing another card, worst case they just put a new user onto NBN FTTB and lose a small slice of profit.

    NBN has to service 100% of premises, and has SLAs for fulfilment of new orders which means they have to be proactive and not reactive, so their economics are somewhat different.
     
  15. CoD511

    CoD511 Member

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    I'd just like to ask something to confirm that I cannot switch to a different NBN FTTN node?

    The brief story is, I signed up with Telstra very early for a switch from ADSL2+ to NBN FTTN, with a 100Mbps downstream plan (I don't feel badly about since it was offered for free) but the real speeds are only 28Mbps downstream with 14Mbps upstream. After this was already done though, NBN Co added a node directly across the street from me with a one digit difference in street address. It wasn't there when I was initially connected to the NBN and as far as I can tell, NBN Co refuse to switch it over? Though I imagine it depends on the existing copper runs and their direction too.. I just feel vastly let down considering there's a node 30m away from me.

    EDIT: With such a close node also however and a fairly short run of fibre if I were to choose FTTP, does anyone know what that may cost? I'd rather not pay $300 just to find out it costs thousands.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  16. caspian

    caspian Member

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    no, you cannot switch to a different node - there is no copper interconnecting different distribution areas.

    you would have to put in a technology choice application to see what a potential bespoke FTTP cost would be. the proximity of a node has no bearing on the cost - you don't connect to fibre at the node. from the data I have seen, a typical connection is $5000 upwards. if you're not prepared for that sort of cost then the $300 for a quote is probably not well spent.
     
  17. th3_hawk

    th3_hawk Member

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    Do you happen to know how that works for FTTC technology? Is the technology choice upgrade path a fibre from the house to the curb or does it have to run much further?

    We are still waiting on our NBN (Planned to be available from Apr-Jun 2020*), but it is slated to be FTTC. While I will happily use the free version first, I have wondered what it might cost to upgrade to FTTP so I could get greater than 100/40 and was under the impression that it would only be a fibre pulled from the curb to the house which in my case is literally out the front and is through a fresh piece of conduit (and copper) installed about 18 months ago.

    Mind you, the cost of higher speeds is still a hefty jump, I also don't understand why ABB offer 100/40 but then 250/25 on the retail side yet business (at a higher cost) offers 250/100. If it was at 250/40 or 250/50 I would be far more interested. I want that fat upload pipe for cloud services, backups and working from home on large files.
     
  18. caspian

    caspian Member

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    at the moment it works the same as for a change off other technologies. FTTC is built to be 100% utilised from day one, there's no spare capacity built into the system by design for reasons of minimising cost and deployment time.

    at some stage in the future it will likely be possible to do a more direct FTTC>FTTP migration. the network hardware allows it, but a number of other IT systems and processes need to be uplifted to support the capability. it's possible that G.fast will provide the higher speed tiers on FTTC first.
     
  19. th3_hawk

    th3_hawk Member

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    Which was always my fear and a travesty in itself (even for FTTN), if the MTM was built with full FTTP capacity to the node/curb allowing for a relatively quick and easy upgrade path down the road I could better understand it's value. To say we have to go back and significantly change the infrastructure again is short sighted at best.
     
  20. callan

    callan Member

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    There's been a long discussion on Whingepool about FTTP 250/100 plans on ABB. Firstly you can still get 250/100 - just ask for it. Mine was recently upgraded from 1.8Tb to unlimited, which I though was kind.
    The new NBN plans, prioritize download over upload bandwidth. Whether that's so that the interconnects between POIs', and between POI's and nodes can be optimized, or whether it's just to make HFC slightly less shitty I really don't know (I have no knowledge of how such things are managed) - but I shouldn't let my natural cynicism get in the way.

    ABB's new pricing plans largely reflect this, as it makes best use of the increased CVC the new NBN tiers offer. IMHO 25mbit upload is too low: I was satisfied with 40, 100mbit is quite nice, if not strictly needed. I'm sure if you ask you'll get with ABB: that was intimated quite strongly in the whingepool discussions - but be prepared to pay handsomley for 250/100. At last check of the reports (November) there were only a bit over 1000 250/100 NBN connections nationwide (1/2 of them ABB supplied) and cost, I assure you is likely part of the reason. ABB might well sneak you on the 250/100 if you ask nicely: they're kinda like that, but it's $220 not cheap.

    With 1000/50 connections being offered in May - THAT'll be interesting.

    Callan
     

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