1. OCAU Merchandise now available! Check out our 20th Anniversary Mugs, Classic Logo Shirts and much more! Discussion here.
    Dismiss Notice

The Last of Us Part II

Discussion in 'Sony Consoles' started by power, Dec 4, 2016.

  1. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    63,149
    Location:
    brisbane
    if they don't like the job, quit. it's their choice to stay.

    don't stay, have a cry and then proceed to hurt the customer of the product.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  2. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    41,456
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I'm in two minds about it.

    Half of me agrees with you. Too many people put up with shitty employers for too long. If you don't like a job, quit, find better.

    Half of me understands that art, for many, is more than a job. These people are at the top of their game, and working for big studios is their only hope of good paid income in their field. Especially in the US where large scale commercial art is either "make Star Wars / Last of Us II / GTA 6" or "work for soulless advertising". In that regard, you get people working these gigs who aren't as confident as people like you and I, and will work themselves to death for a passion project. These are the sorts of people you WANT working on stories like these - pricks who work in advertising would never come up with the depth of story we all want from these projects.

    The sad part is that people like that get abused, because they're easy to abuse. And I've witnessed it on a much smaller scale first hand. The first people who are asked to stay back "a few hours" without pay are the softly spoken artists. The upper management still all get their bonuses and boats, but the artists get to spend another night away from their families finishing things up because management/admin didn't estimate things porperly.

    I was at an industry drinks night pre COVID19, and had the "pleasure" of listening to dozens of top tier Hollywood VFX artists all tell me that their teenage children are strangers and hate them because they dedicated their lives to films that people like you and I love, and people like half the "film and TV" subforum on these forums flippantly throw one-liner reviews at and words like "meh, they should have done better" with no understanding of how many lives were destroyed to get to that point.

    So, I do agree with you. But I've also seen the human side of it, where the sorts of people who are deeply empathetic story makers get fucked over because they're deeply empathetic. And when those people snap, there are no winners. They've snapped because they're beyond breaking point. Probably with lives, minds, and careers in ruins. Meanwhile, we're pissing and moaning about spoilers. There's some perspective to have here, I feel.

    Mental health is going to affect a lot more projects like these as time goes on. The cold hearted capitalists are going to have to find that out the hard way, one way or the other.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  3. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    63,149
    Location:
    brisbane
    justify it any way you like, hurting the end consumer for their work conditions is a selfish act. it's also incredibly cowardly. instead of sticking up for themselves they choose to spoil millions of people's leisure time for a beef between them and their employer.
     
  4. Drizz06

    Drizz06 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,525
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Not everyone is cut out to work at the top of there game. Studios like ND and Rockstar have there issues but they are the best because they expect the best from there employees. People make sacrifices everyday for all sorts of reasons but truth is you can’t have everything. If you want a family and plenty of time at home then you gotta take the soulless advertising job.
     
  5. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    41,456
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I'm not justifying anything. There's no justice here. And painting broken people in a broken system as villains isn't justice either.

    I repeat: 50% of me agrees entirely with your view on this. But ideas don't exist in a vacuum, and people can and do have multiple ideas in conflict.

    Perhaps. But what I see here are issues that keep happening in the creative industries, but are far less common (not gone entirely, but certainly not as frequent) in the tech and finance industries, even with similar size companies and similar stress levels.

    Again, blaming the broken person at the end of a long trail of shit isn't the entire answer. Not when other industries fixed this, and media and entertainment is still so broken.

    There is a difference between condoning and acknowledging. I'm not condoning what happened at all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  6. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    63,149
    Location:
    brisbane
  7. Drizz06

    Drizz06 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,525
    Location:
    Melbourne
  8. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    63,149
    Location:
    brisbane
    i'm sorry but said "broken" person had the foresight to not only be disgruntled, but also took the time to plan to film important story parts and then sat on this until they could see it would do the most damage to their employer, their fellow staff and the customers.

    Pre-meditated, calculated, selfish and malicious. I give this person 5% sympathy, everything they've done is the result of many, many decisions.
     
    Drizz06 likes this.
  9. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    41,456
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I repeat, there's a difference between acknowledging and condoning.

    I acknowledge why it happened. That doesn't mean I condone why it happened (quite the opposite in fact). You can understand why a person is driven to a criminal act without condoning the act. I have never, and will never (touch wood and rub my crystal ball) destroy an employer or product I was working on and became unhappy about. But I get why people are driven to madness.

    Amongst other things, I work in digital security for media. Specifically film, but games are very similar in what goes on. One of the things I advise all business owners is to keep an ear to the ground on general staff happiness. WIthout any doubt, the greatest risk to IP doesn't come from hackers outside an organisation. It comes from anger within. Whether it's bad apples or people under stress or whatever, protecting your IP from your own staff is critical.

    And you can spend MILLIONS on all sorts of security, access restrictions, "least privileged access" controls, etc. But ultimately something like someone on the story team will very likely have access to the entire story. So one of the least expensive and most effective things you can do in digital security has nothing to do with "digital" at all. It's simply treating them like human beings and not cattle, and around 90% of IP threats vanish.

    Again, this doesn't excuse any behaviour, and doesn't condone anything illegal. Quite the opposite - I always recommend people keep personal integrity high and never burn bridges, no matter how large the temptation. But high pressure game dev studios are a boiling pot ready to blow, and the ones that don't have IP leaks are the ones that get on top of their human concerns early in the game (this has been a big deal in the games biz for a long time - Google "EA spouse", which blew the lid off this bullshit 16 years ago). The sad fact is that this was preventable in many different ways. The individual could have had a whole lot more integrity. And so could their managers, supervisors, HR and executives. There's clear precedence here, and many things could have been done earlier to prevent this from ever happening. For this to have happened, there was negligence in several areas.

    As it stands, the end result is we get a firm release date now. Focusing purely on that, slightly positive change came out of a very negative thing. Let's hope that long term the studio AND Sony learn a few things about how to better manage a large creative project.

    As for the individual, you can rest assured they'll never work on another large game again. That career is definitely destroyed. And whether people are happy or not about it, it doesn't change the fact that it happened, and I can guarantee you the games industry will see it again and again before its fixed. Mental health affects a huge percentage of the population, and if you think a team of 5000+ people doesn't have at least a dozen loonies in it, you're simply negligent as a business owner.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
  10. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    63,149
    Location:
    brisbane
    i can only hope they never work in the industry ever again, this person has so little respect for themselves, their employer, their fellow workers and the people who PAY FOR THEM TO EXIST - the customer.

    i'm acutely aware of mental illness, but the pre-meditation on display speaks to an individual who plans and spent more time worried about how they were going to get back at other people rather than taking responsibility for themselves.

    Now to avoid spoilers for almost 2 months!
     
  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    41,456
    Location:
    Brisbane
    You've got your wish. I've seen similar happen far too often, which is why I'm so hell bent on talking openly about the uncomfortable reality of what's needed to prevent it instead of pointing to easy targets. (I repeat - I do this for work too).

    I've been accused of assuming people are angry when they're not on these forums, so I'll make sure I prefix my words with a disclaimer - I read posts like these with a tone of anger. Wishing a person's career to be destroyed and assuming pre-meditation in the absence of fact makes me assume that. So apologies if I'm wrong in that conclusion, but putting anger aside, this could have been a moment's madness or an on the spot decision, and that needs to be considered.

    You seem quite certain that this person is a Hollywood villain archetype. I think you really need to consider a wider range of possibilities here. As someone once said to me, "depression is just rage without enthusiasm" (that accurately described my own mental state in times of my own worst depression). I don't discount the possibility that both your version above could be correct, or that it could have been a moment of madness.

    Doesn't change the outcome of course. But I repeat: this could have been avoidable, and a scapegoat only misses the bigger lessons the industry as a whole needs to learn.

    This *will* happen again. There *will* be more huge leaks and spoilers. Getting tunnel-vision angry at the individuals who do the spoiling misses all the opportunities to prevent it.
     
  12. Dilbery

    Dilbery Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,258
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    upload_2020-4-28_9-1-28.png

    New release date!
     
    samos and elvis like this.
  13. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    63,149
    Location:
    brisbane
    it takes pre-meditation to stand with a phone and systematically record story footage over a period of time, hold onto this and then release it before launch. that's my angle there. this wasn't a late night off the cuff spoiler filled reddit post.
     
  14. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    41,456
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Fair point. I maintain that this person could and should have been weeded out earlier (via HR action), and that better conditions could have lowered the chances of this sort of action.

    That doesn't absolve any one individual. The individual doing the leaking will (rightly) never be employed in a position of trust again. But if Naughty Dog want to survive long term, they have to prevent this in more ways than just "using a bigger hammer".
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
  15. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    41,456
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Official word now suggests it was a family member of one of Naughty Dog's staff working from home that was the source of the leak.

    Not that we'll ever know the real truth, but that's the media reports at the moment.
     
  16. Drizz06

    Drizz06 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,525
    Location:
    Melbourne
    They will never release the truth so any news cannot be trusted.
     
  17. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    41,456
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories at all, but this whole thing has just been too weird. Not just the leak, but all the delays and in house drama leading up to it too.

    At this point I'm bored of it all, and just want to play the damned game. Avoiding spoilers has been easy enough (seems I already avoid shitty media well enough). Not long to wait now.
     
  18. PsychoSmiley

    PsychoSmiley Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2001
    Messages:
    6,960
    Location:
    Taranaki, New Zealand
    Media now reports its unrelated at all? I'm seeing info suggesting it was a hack via stored code in other ND games to get server access (my butchered interpretation); so lazy security/clever people?

    https://twitter.com/PixelButts/status/1256792950136172550
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
  19. Drizz06

    Drizz06 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,525
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Pixelbutts post looks most likely to me.
     
  20. Drizz06

    Drizz06 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,525
    Location:
    Melbourne
    New trailer dropping midnight.
    Will be interesting to see how they spin this with all the leaks floating around.
     

Share This Page

Advertisement: