The NBN 'spin'

Discussion in 'Networking, Telephony & Internet' started by vladtepes, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    They did set out however to try and convince voters that it would be acceptable for use, which in many cases it really isn't and is now costing NBN Co. a fortune to replace miles of copper. Other countries look at us replacing old copper with new and simply laugh at us...


    JSmith
     
  2. clonex

    clonex Member

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    isnt that only the case during co-existance period
     
  3. caspian

    caspian Member

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    that is somewhat true, and somewhat not. do you know the current fibre solution can only do 2.5Gbps for the 32 premises on a PON? it's not the fibre that is a limitation, it is the optical transceivers at either end.

    of course, they can be upgraded, at a cost. just like HFC is being upgraded to DOCSIS3.1 ..... it's the same coax in the ground, just swap out the electronics at either end.

    Q: so why didn't we go directly to WDM-PON from the outset instead of spending all that money on GPON fibre networks?

    A: because we didn't need it at the time, just like we still don't need it now, and we'll upgrade to the latest technology when required - which will no doubt be beyond the best that we could access now, and probably cheaper too.

    in terms of going direct to the end state...

    - was the house you were living in when you were 25 the same one you expect to live in at 65? or maybe you couldn't justify the cost of it at the time, or afford it?

    - why didn't they build the Monash freeway with 8 lines in both directions from the outset? surely it would have been cheaper and less disruptive to do it at the time, than spend a heap of money reworking the solution over and over and over? although that would gave involved spending several billions of dollars on infrastructure we didn't need at the time... which would then go largely unused for years... while the money spent would be locked up and unable to be used for other things we do need now.

    "but we should have done it right from the outset!"</incredibly_simplistic_whirlpool_poster>



    this isn't like buying the large jar of tomato paste in the knowledge you'll use it up eventually, and it can sit in the fridge for the meantime. this costs tens of billions of dollars that we do not have upfront, especially when the gear sits there under utilised in the meantime, costing a fortune to maintain. most people who don't work in the industry would faint dead out on the floor if they even saw the power bills involved to keep gear energised but not actually in use.

    someone will now say "so just power it down". I helped built one of those systems recently. it cost several times more than most people will earn in their entire lifetimes to create, by the time it takes into account automation to realise what needs to be turned up when, and the ability to do that.

    bonus points: did you realise that most complex electronics dies on power-up? scarily, even between that and the cost of the automation, it was still worth it.

    even when we took into account the fact that gear not powered up can't receive software updates and patches, can't be remotely inventoried etc, and all of the constantly-rolling-never-stops-not-EVER maintenance programmes now have to take into account that every single upgrade and patch that is EVER delivered needs to support EVERY single release before it... because at the time it is designed, they don't know there isn't a card out there somewhere that hasn't been powered down for 2 years and thus has a software version on it too old to take the current patch, so it will shit itself fatally when it's powered up just in time to support a service... YAY, we now have a restoration SLA to meet!


    fun fact: a lot of enterprise/carrier grade gear is upgraded simply because the vendor stops support for it, and the operator has to upgrade or risk being caught in the invidious position where they have a production network reliant on it, but if it dies the vendor won't support them.

    if that wan't the case, the equipment might be used for years... ask Telstra how much fun that is. they literally have to hoard every spare for some technologies and patch them up in their own component-level repair labs because the vendor went out of business years ago. that's not how you run a high-availability business spanning the whole country with availability and restoration SLAs and very real contractual penalties for breaches. you don't enter into that without cast iron supply and repair chains, and along with that you realise and accept vendor end of support/end of life restrictions, and you work within them.

    that's just ONE reason it makes zero sense to invest in equipment that isn't needed at the time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  4. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    Well the current network could never be the same as direct FTTP... and we will need to spend much more in the end to get a substandard network that cost $51B so far which is only until end 2018!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Broadband_Network

    For a few more $B we could have had FTTP, which is probably why NBN Co. are now doing FTTC in some areas.


    JSmith
     
  5. caspian

    caspian Member

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    that is a very limited viewpoint. the FTTN component of the network is a small proportion of what has been built, and a commensurately minor contributor to the total cost.

    building all fibre would have added multiple billions, and more importantly multiple years to the total delivery timeline, and that is a cast iron fact. anyone who can't internalise that is a fool and there's no point in trying to have a rational discussion with them.

    FTTN was chosen to deliver an adequate (nobody said identical) experience much sooner, in the full knowledge that it was an incremental step.


    that statement misses the very crucial point that FTTC did not exist as a technology at the time the decision to use FTTN was taken.

    it does now, and so as always the best technology that meets the government SOE is used at the time when it comes to put pen to paper, and spend time and money designing and letting contracts for a geographical area. that has naturally resulted in some previously FTTN areas being redesignated to receive FTTC. that's the luxury of having additional options.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  6. BelowAverageIQ

    BelowAverageIQ Member

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    Ummm 250/100 has been available for a while now with ABB at least. Dont take these comments to heart Caspian, just because you work for NBN Co. It is not personal. Putting sprinkles on a turd, doesnt make it less of a turd. Exactly what HFC really is, with a lot of remediation and ongoing maintenance still required.

    Fibre has had the ability to do GB speeds a lot longer and now capable of 10x that................... a lot less remediation and maintenance required.

    Still, a step in the right direction that the mess MTM really has given us.
     
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  7. darknebula

    darknebula Member

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  8. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    Well that's not very nice...

    https://www.itnews.com.au/news/unsw-researchers-find-fttp-nbn-worth-the-extra-billions-512368

    http://research.economics.unsw.edu.au/richardholden/assets/social-return-accounting.pdf

    I reckon by the time they're done arsing around with replacing copper nationwide it will be more than $72.6B. It's already $6.5B over estimates at end 2018.

    Indeed...


    JSmith
     
  9. darknebula

    darknebula Member

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    It was supposed to cost $29billion and be complete by 2016 if I remember correctly
     
  10. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    Not according to the article I just posted... so it's even a bigger cost blowout if that is the case! :)


    JSmith
     
  11. darknebula

    darknebula Member

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    vladtepes likes this.
  12. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    Great so now it's $18B+ over estimates and almost 3 years late... well done LNP! :Paranoid:


    JSmith
     
  13. clonex

    clonex Member

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    didnt libs originally say $21 billion to counter labors 28 billion
     
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  14. Hive

    Hive Member

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    All labers fult
     
  15. OP
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    vladtepes

    vladtepes Member

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    All this Gb/sec business sounds impressive, but I remember the glory days of upgrading to a 2400 baud modem.... :D


    hehe I'm getting HFC evidently, same issues with delivery timeframe too. Similar issue with ADSL speeds. Fastest I've ever seen is 2.5mbps down. Generally its around 1, yep, just 1.
     
  16. caspian

    caspian Member

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    what did you update from, an acoustic coupler? must have been really annoying every time old man Mccoy up the road asked the operator to put the party line through to the feed store.

    it was years since Mike was in a position to know with any accuracy. I doubt anyone will ever know what the actual cost would have been, but the lesson is that politicians were just pulling numbers out of their arses. like insisting it was still going to be $29b when the cost was already higher than that, with a long way to go. :rolleyes:

    saying the project is $xx "over" some wild arsed guess made with no visibility of the issues yet to come, and then conveniently rounded by about $10b one way or the other to make the numbers suit the point of view of whatever politician was trying to use the issue as a football at the time, means nothing to me.
     
  17. caspian

    caspian Member

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    you might want to read what I wrote again. I know perfectly well that it's available. the point is that the vast majority of people don't choose the higher speeds, because they have no need for it, and thus obviously choose not to purchase something that would be largely wasted.

    there's nothing wrong with HFC, and anyone bashing it is just demonstrating that their expertise in the subject is limited to the intellectually inbred bile they read on Whirlpool, the land of the fibre zealot.

    thanks, I'm a professional telecommunications engineer and have been for a couple of decades now, I reckon I've got a handle on it.
     
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  18. @sia@home

    @sia@home Member

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    Statements like these give me motivation put a single board computer next to my router and log 3 independent speed test results every 15 minutes. As well as a functional test result like downloading from my aws bucket. As well is poll for connectivity issues continuously and post the results to a website.

    An example for how it should have been handled. https://www.swisscom.ch/en/about/company/portrait/network/fibre-optics-network-expansion-map.html

    Gigabit is 90chf per month without discounts. I did some research and there are plans in the 39-59 chf range for 600/60 from other providers.
    https://www.swisscom.ch/en/residential/inone.html

    In the USA cable (sold as gigabit) which achieves 600/60 on DOCSIS 3.1 is out and its under $150 AUD

    And Australia wonders why the technology professionals leave...
     
  19. caspian

    caspian Member

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    always love it when people compare two totally unrelated pieces of information like it means anything.

    Australia - 7.692 million km²
    Switzerland - 41,285 km²

    gee, that's 186 times the land area.... but we should totally cover it with fibre, including overbuilding the perfectly good HFC network that reaches 3 million households.

    hang on.... what do you mean that will cost more?

    [​IMG]
     
  20. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    Looks like NBN are so big on spin and protecting their positions that they even have shills out and about...


    JSmith
     
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