The Pop!OS debacle (LTT)

Discussion in 'Other Operating Systems' started by Yehat, Nov 17, 2021.

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How much is LTT at fault for Pop! Nuke

  1. 100% LTT / 0% system - It's the users fault for not reading / understanding the warning

    13 vote(s)
    27.1%
  2. 75% LTT / 25% system - He should've read the prompts but the system shouldn't give that option

    7 vote(s)
    14.6%
  3. 50% LTT / 50% system - Equally at fault

    5 vote(s)
    10.4%
  4. 25% LTT / 75% system - System shouldn't have given that option, but he should've read the prompts

    17 vote(s)
    35.4%
  5. 0% LTT / 100% system - It's the dev's/system's fault for allowing the behaviour

    3 vote(s)
    6.3%
  6. I Like Dragons!!!!

    3 vote(s)
    6.3%
  1. Yehat

    Yehat Member

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    So for those that haven't seen it, Linus and Luke from LTT were running a challenge to use Linux as their daily driver / gaming PCs for a month. Yes I know it's "cool" to bag out LTT but the site has large reach, and this feature in particular has the potential to attract newer users to atleast try out the Linux desktop.



    The video is meant to be from the perspective of a user who is new to linux as a desktop O/S, so Linus opts for Pop!OS (I've not used this) and Luke for Mint (I dare say many would agree that of the major distro's this one is quite beginner friendly). Both are Ubuntu/Debian based.

    Luke experienced some minor issues setting up mint, but for the most part stuff just worked. The main madness happens at 10mins into the video with Linus.
    • Steam fails to work on Pop!OS so Linus issues a "sudo apt get install steam" from the console.
    • In the ensuing wall of text, is a warning it's going to (in effect) nuke core desktop packages.
    • Linus proceeds (i.e. is it reasonable to expect newer users in particular to understand the implication of their action here?) and the installation of steam results in core desktop/GUI related packages being uninstalled which means the system at next boot only has the console mode available (not a great experience).
    Edit: The specific warning message can be seen in this post: https://forums.overclockers.com.au/posts/19047883/

    There's quite a bit of debate on the web around is that the user's fault for ignoring the warning, and/or is more of a system issue that the dev's should've prevented this situation to occur in the first place ?

    What do you think ? -- Poll below.
    User error, System fault or some combination of both ?
    And the broader question it raises is: To what degree should the system be expected (if at all?) to "save the user from themselves" ?


    Tech details of the issue
    One of the Pop!OS dev's responded to the issue (which has since been patched):
    Source: https://twitter.com/jeremy_soller/status/1453008808314351628
    I believe the package issue above has been resolved since.

    And a change to the package manager that has been put in is:
    https://github.com/pop-os/apt/pull/1/files
    upload_2021-11-17_12-46-39.png

    Some further commentary on the issue and the above change:


    Edit2: There's a subsequent response from System76's Principle Engineer on the issue: link
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
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  2. sebthepleb

    sebthepleb New Member

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    was most likely just a mix of both.
     
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  3. CRTified

    CRTified Member

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    Worst thing about watching an LTT vid is having his content instantly take over your recommendations sidebar with a vengeance. The algorithms are really really keen that we all watch LTT :lol:

    On topic: Windows and Linux aren't that different, from a casual but competent (they exist right?) user's point of view.

    As a home admin and tech worker I've experienced more or less equal (and equally-perplexing) frustrations with either one over the decades. At times the sheer weight of complexity (of everyday systems) sees some less-than-ideal layering of configs and installations occur, and it can all fall over, quickly or slowly. You have zero control over who wrote what and how, and how good they were. Neither OS is immune from that, there be hidden dragons everywhere. You don't get absolute stability without absolute constraint, and that's not how we compute in these liberal times-of-the-future.

    There's no shortage of other reasons to avoid Windows where possible, but it is also possible to empathise with what happened to LTT here, and see that pitfalls abound for the unguided.

    To what degree should a system save the user from themselves? To a self-defining degree dictated by the needs of it's community. Like here, where an obvious hole was found, and that hole is now plugged. If he'd had the basic advice to stick with mainstream Ubuntu for his initial forays - in the same way you would generally tell someone to, say, not overclock their machine straight away, or not install and configure their own Windows setup for the first time - then it would have remained somebody else's hole to enjoy.

    My only minor beef, a tech guy should have learned a long time ago that any time the OS makes you type out a complete word or sentence, you better think three times man!! Not uncommon with partition management and other such critical operations, in computing. But perhaps he is too young for that stuff.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
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  4. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    The best thing about Linux is the fact that logs and instructions under terminal are surprisingly well worded in fairly ordinary English, rather than see 'An error has occurred 0x0000AD', you actually get an explanation - Assuming you have the aptitude to actually read warnings and instructions to begin with.

    Hell, most of the time under Windows all you get are either spinning balls, which are totally useless at conveying overall progress; or you get dialog boxes during software installation that pop up and then disappear for a minute or two at a time - Leaving you in complete limbo with no idea what's happening at all. Software doesn't always install/uninstall faultlessly under Windows either.

    This is really no different to a commercial tenant signing a lease without reading it, but expecting it be identical to a residential lease with the same rights as a residential tenant, only to be shocked beyond belief when everything blows up in their face because they didn't read what was presented to them before taking action.

    Every time I've installed Steam, I downloaded and installed the .deb from the Steam website itself. I've never had a problem.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
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  5. Malakai

    Malakai Member

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    If he had taken 30 seconds to read and understand what was written on the screen he would have said NO and found another way to install Steam. I know that's what I would have done after seeing that.

    I used Pop! OS for a few months earlier this year and damaged the AMD display drivers when trying to update them. I managed to fix the issue though by doing some research on the problem.

    One final thought I had watching the video; even the most experienced user is unlikely to fix anything without error late at night or into the early hours of the morning.
     
  6. theSeekerr

    theSeekerr Member

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    Do I think it's the fault of the system that it did exactly what it told him it was going to do?

    The "wall of text" includes lines that read "This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!" and "You are about to do something potentially harmful", as well as putting up the "you must be this tall to ride" gate.
    And real people still come away thinking the package manager should have done more to protect the user?
     
  7. CRTified

    CRTified Member

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    It's the very same system which literally told him to run that command.

    I doubt I'll be agreed with in this kind of setting, but if the wall of derision from we "actual" computer folk is unbroken by even the slightest of empathy or understanding, then perhaps none of us should be in the business of shepherding the people in computing.

    At best, what he discovered was that an unguided foray into Linux can result in an experience summed up as "simply tried to do a really basic, common thing, as per the system's named functions, and found that it could not be easily done". And it's true. That can happen in any number of ways. Also in Windows. And most/all OS's. Because we're simply not that good, and the products of the computing world thus far are found wanting in many many ways. If they weren't, none of us would have the jobs we do.

    Again, if we refuse to acknowledge that obvious reality, perhaps we shouldn't be in this industry any more than Mr (LTT) Clueless himself.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
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  8. theSeekerr

    theSeekerr Member

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    Look, I totally agree that it's a bad experience to have started with the reasonable goal "I'm going to install Steam" and ended up at "huh, I guess I can't install Steam without doing something the system is warning me is dangerous".

    But at that point... go and seek help. Find someone who is actually an expert. Post to the forums, join an IRC channel, start reading and try to learn something.

    Or you could just YOLO it because it makes for more engaging #content for your #brand. Can't make a video about "reading", after all.
     
  9. Dilbery

    Dilbery Member

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    Year of the linux desktop

    I think you're missing the whole point of the video.... how many people out there would have an expert to goto or know about an IRC channel? It was framed as the average user installing it on their pc...
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
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  10. CRTified

    CRTified Member

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    I agree, but in the sense that he's an example of an ordinary intellect making ordinary choices about ordinary tasks, it highlights a common real world mindset. As professionals in this space we can either rail at humanity or we can educate and strive to design our products to accommodate ordinary intellects and mindsets that will be encountered in the real world whether we like it or not.

    I don't want to conflate the topic too much with the notion of whether somebody like LTT should be famous or have a platform as a "computer influencer". I think that's a separate issue.
     
  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I didn't want to get into this debate, because I FUCKING LOATHE LTT. But I'm going to say this and this only:

    https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/1114-3F74-0B8A-B784
    https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/blob/master/README.md

    Valve/Steam is very clear on what distros it supports. Right there in black and white - latest Ubuntu LTS only, Unity/GNOME/KDE only. Here and now that's Ubuntu 20.04 LTS.

    I DON'T CARE that Pop!_OS is "based on Ubuntu", because it's not Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. It uses different versions of packages, it's DIFFERENT.

    Like, if you came to me and said "Steam won't work on Ubuntu 20.10", I'd tell you to fuck right off and put it on the supported version of a supported OS. I don't care that it's "just one release newer". It's there in black and white what it supports.

    If you came to me today and said "Steam gave me an error trying to install on Windows XP", guess what I'd fucking tell you? Would I excuse the fact that WinXP is "just a couple of versions different" to Windows 7? Would I excuse the fact that "It's Windows and all based off the same code" or "that it used to work on WinXP" or "some other people made it work one time"? No, I'd tell you to read the fucking supported OSes list and install it on a fucking supported OS.

    BUT DO YOU SEE A FUCKING DICKHEAD CLICKBAIT VIDEO FROM LTT ABOUT STEAM ON WINDOWSXP?

    This isn't a "Linux" problem. This is LTT being a fucking moron and making millions out of fucking clickbait bullshit. Steam is proprietary software, and has a hard list of supported OSes. USE A FUCKING SUPPORTED OS FOR FUCKS SAKE.

    That's it. I'm done. This is all I'm going to say. Fuck LTT.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
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  12. theSeekerr

    theSeekerr Member

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    If "humanity" means "too lazy to read" then yes, I will continue to "rail against humanity" for the foreseeable future.
     
  13. CRTified

    CRTified Member

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    And there will continue to be people too lazy to read, and they will continue to use things they should not. And then they'll come to us (if not you, then the next poor schmuck one-of-us) to fix it. And tech-y lives will continue to pour down the drain as they work with the frustrating outcomes of real people interacting with real software. No-one's winning here. Prevention is still usually easier than cure.

    I get the angst and it's all pretty much preaching to the choir with me, but as I get older I see less-and-less the point in approaching tension with combative mentalities.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
  14. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Conversely, as I get older, I see far less point in trying to help people who don't first want to help themselves.

    And the ultimate prevention is education. In all things, no exceptions. There's a growing sentiment of anti-intellectualism across all things in the world (not just technology), and the stark reality is that if you want to survive the modern world, you have to learn things.

    First thing to learn in computing is reading the requirements list for any given software. This is not
    a) New
    b) Limited to video games
    c) Limited to Linux

    If I buy a PlayStation disk, shove it in my XBox and it doesn't work, should I then make a clickbait video about that too? Should Sony/Microsoft make it so that discs from other vendors don't fit in their consoles because "they need to protect their users from expensive mistakes"?

    "Make things easier" is a noble goal, but it in no way invalidates nor prevents the nobler goal of an individual learning new things or applying said learning.

    I repeat - this whole thing is not a "software thing", and not even a "Linux thing". It's a basic "read the instructions" thing. This could have as easily applied to lego or taking medicine or baking a cake or assembling Ikea furniture or any task on planet Earth that wasn't eating/breathing/shitting and had to be learned post-birth.

    This literally is only getting hype because (a) it's LTT, and he has an inate ability to make people totally forget basic logic, and (b) recent "SteamDeck" hype is driving masses towards a software ecosystem that's different to what they're used to, and they're all forgetting they once had to learn the old software ecosystem, and now confuse 20 years of experience with intuition. (Not forgetting that SteamDeck is a complete, cohesive product, and different to "PC/Desktop Steam on Linux", but said hype is pushing people to try things that aren't pre-bundled safely for them, and those who can't read instructions are failing as a result).
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
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  15. CRTified

    CRTified Member

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    If you spend your life/career leading and teaching things, then it's the world's biggest acknowledgement that fallible ol' human beings often require leading and teaching to get anywhere.

    The fact this is every real gamer's, sorry, computing nerd's favourite hatebag LTT doesn't change the fact that most of us who have ever worked in IT have had to spend far too much of our lives dealing with things at least that stupid, and wishing we didn't have to.

    I don't need to cite "Business & Enterprise Computing Rant Thread" @ 29837982374 pages to prove that obvious truism.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
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  16. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I don't think anyone is debating this at all.

    Linus is a moron, didn't read the instructions, did the wrong thing, hurt himself. That's proven a thousand times over - it didn't start with this video, nor will it end here (he'll do it again, and again, and again - Linus is the textbook definition of "The Expert Beginner").

    There's some "debate" over what protections "someone" should put in place or improve to prevent it. But that does nothing to answer the question of who's going to do it, or who's going to pay them.

    As it stands, here's what exists (now, or soon at least):

    1) Steam on Ubuntu 20.04 exists, with excellent documentation and support (for people who can be fucked reading). User base currently stands at ~1% according to Steam hardware surveys, which is over a million people who have successfully used this product.

    2) SteamDeck, a complete "out of the box" system of Steam-on-Linux, zero install/configuration needed from users. Standard console experience of "I don't care what it runs, it just works out of the box". Still in development, but has zero to do with Linus' moronic behaviour because there's no install to fuck up (although I'm sure Linus could drop his SteamDeck and blame someone else for not making it slippery-proof-enough and make another million bucks off a clickbait video).

    So what's left to do, and by whom? Should Valve prevent Steam from installing on non-supported OSes? And how much should they enforce this when it's very likely the tech-savvy Linux community (which doesn't include Linus, I'll point out) just hack around it?

    Should "Linux" make "Linux easier"? But who is "Linux" here? Who's getting paid to make Valve's commercial product work better? If Pop!_OS/System76 want to do that, fine, but there are standard channels to do this. Hire a developer, put effort towards it, work with Valve to get Pop!_OS added to the list of officially supported OSes. This isn't mind blowing.

    More to the point, that hasn't happened yet. Maybe it's in progress already? Maybe System76 have done some of this work and are part of the way there? Who really gives a shit when the official Valve documentation states quite clearly what is supported, and Pop!_OS is nowhere on that list.

    I mean, shit, lemme just pick up this book right here:

    badger.jpg

    Give it a go, then make a clickbait video about Steam not working on DeadBadger.

    Or hell, why don't I bust out my Amiga 600 and try Steam on that, and release a video all about it? I'll then launch into pages and pages about how "the Amiga community needs to improve this if they want anyone to take their OS seriously".

    Through this obvious satire, we can see pretty easily where the faulty logic lies. I'm not entirely sure why all common sense and logic gets to fly out the window just because a financially successful YouTuber says so.

    I say: stick to the facts. Valve support Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. Canonical/Ubuntu support Valve/Steam. This is an existing two-way commercial relationship that provides a working product for their combined audiences with over one million successful users (unsure how many of these are clickbait-YouTubers though. I'm going to assume zero). All other possible combinations and permutations of software on planet Earth are perfectly fine for the private individual to fuck about with, but if you fail, that's on you as the individual, not some hypothetical community who apparently should all be working to make your life a one-click breeze in your hobby time for free.

    If people want to argue some hypothetical mass of humans who are available to make every possible combination of things work together for free, I can't support that. Again, if people in the open source community want to do that, that's great. More power to them. But lest we forget this is Valve's commercial product with specific support under specific software (limited both on Windows and Linux to the number of releases/distros/versions supported). There's zero difference here between Windows and Linux when it comes to limited support on limited versions, and whatever insanity some clickbaity YouTuber wants to hype to get adverbux, that has nothing to do with the reality of the product on offer.

    5ulabe.jpg

    I beg for common sense here. A quick application of it shows exactly what's going on, and why mindless hype is the true enemy, not Valve and not "Linux". (Whatever "Linux" may be to the individual).
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
  17. miicah

    miicah Member

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    100% this.

    I downloaded Lubuntu and tried to set up remote desktop. It wouldn't work and it wasn't after a long time that I found some post by a Lubuntu dev saying that remote xorg wouldn't work because the correct desktop environment (?) wasn't installed (because it's a lightweight OS).

    EDIT: On the latest version of Lubuntu that is
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
  18. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    This has nothing to do with Steam on Linux, which is a commercial product supported by two commercial companies with clear documentation.

    Again, why is Linux special here? Some user can't get their printer to work on Windows, does this make Steam on Windows a non-starter? How come it applies in one example but not the other?

    My grandma can't install Linux on her microwave. THAT'S IT, LINUX IS DEAD.

    This whole thing is utter lunacy. I feel like the world's lost all grasp of basic logic and common sense when conclusions are derived from false assumptions, and it's suddenly everyone else's fault as to why my bad idea didn't work.

    Folks need a lesson in taking ownership of their bad ideas. I fuck things up on the daily (hourly, in fact), but I don't blame my software or make a YouTube video about it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
  19. BAK

    BAK Member

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    Followed by 3 posts totalling 52 lines and 1228 words.

    Which one of the T's in LTT is "Triggered"?*

    *because it would be nice if Linus triggered somebody whilst standing in the firing line of an apocalypse spec frozen chicken cannon of doom
     
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  20. CRTified

    CRTified Member

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    I don't watch LTT, because he's not aimed at my/our level of enthusiast. Any more than pop music is aimed at highly skilled musicians. That doesn't stop it having massive audiences that'd trample you for suggesting they're all low plebs.

    I did watch this video however, after hearing about 'the hype' and it didn't come across as hyperbolic. I don't recall anyone saying "until Linux fixes this they're a joke!" or anything close. Just an average person with a standard, highly fallible human thought process which led him into a hole.

    He didn't think "1. Want Steam, 2. Read Steam documentation, 3. Proceed according to documentation", he thought "want to run a game on Linux, Steam is gamesville, I've heard Steam runs on Linux, cool, let's install Steam on Linux and then play a game".

    I may be in the minority here but to me that is only human, and it feels wrong as a computing leader to answer that humanity with vitriol. People like him were everywhere when I was a kid and they're still everywhere now. And if it's anyone's responsibility to shepherd this kind of situation into a better place, then it's ours, because by dedicating our lives to this, this is our place.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021

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