1. OCAU Merchandise is available! Check out our 20th Anniversary Mugs, Classic Logo Shirts and much more! Discussion in this thread.
    Dismiss Notice

The Pop!OS debacle (LTT)

Discussion in 'Other Operating Systems' started by Yehat, Nov 17, 2021.

?

How much is LTT at fault for Pop! Nuke

  1. 100% LTT / 0% system - It's the users fault for not reading / understanding the warning

    15 vote(s)
    25.4%
  2. 75% LTT / 25% system - He should've read the prompts but the system shouldn't give that option

    8 vote(s)
    13.6%
  3. 50% LTT / 50% system - Equally at fault

    5 vote(s)
    8.5%
  4. 25% LTT / 75% system - System shouldn't have given that option, but he should've read the prompts

    20 vote(s)
    33.9%
  5. 0% LTT / 100% system - It's the dev's/system's fault for allowing the behaviour

    5 vote(s)
    8.5%
  6. I Like Dragons!!!!

    6 vote(s)
    10.2%
  1. elvis

    elvis OCAU's most famous and arrogant know-it-all

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    46,806
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Fucking tell me about it.

    NO MORE WORDS.

    Fuck LTT. Right in the ear.

    paper-bag2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
    BAK likes this.
  2. CRTified

    CRTified Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2021
    Messages:
    503
    Guess I'm talked out about this too.

    One final point: even stupid people use computers. A lot of them. Every day. That ain't changing soon.
     
  3. Dilbery

    Dilbery Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,473
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    In all fairness, I don't think I know anyone that has read the Windows documentation either...
     
    Zenskas, miicah and NSanity like this.
  4. PabloEscobar

    PabloEscobar Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    14,678
    sudo apt get install steam

    If Steam only works on XYZ distributions, why does this not fail with "Incorrect OS Version"
     
  5. CRTified

    CRTified Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2021
    Messages:
    503
    Because the writers of Pop!OS didn't think to make it so. Now corrected, for obvious hind-visible reasons.

    Hence why basic first advice to prospective Linux toe dippers is always "use standard Ubuntu (, you fools)". It's the one with the scale and type of user base and developer to have weeded out/avoided the largest majority of shitcode and pleb pothole.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
  6. mAJORD

    mAJORD Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2002
    Messages:
    12,612
    Location:
    Griffin , Brisbane
    Just wait till Jayz 2 cents has a crack.
     
  7. Dilbery

    Dilbery Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,473
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    Fuck thats going to just be a mess, his Ryzen Mini pc video was just painful with him trying to explain 'uses' for it.
     
  8. PabloEscobar

    PabloEscobar Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    14,678
    So Pop!OS use their own repository,
    which has Steam in it
    Which was broken, tried to install, and broke other things in the OS.

    But this is the Users fault? and not the OS?
     
  9. CRTified

    CRTified Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2021
    Messages:
    503
    I hear Britney is free.
    That's the question isn't it. All kinds of aspects are all kinds of faults, as I see it. TATWD (and sideways too).

    Fairly thin branch he's shaking, though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
  10. elvis

    elvis OCAU's most famous and arrogant know-it-all

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    46,806
    Location:
    Brisbane
    In all fairness, if I made a clickbait video about Steam not working on Windows 98, I'd be rightfully publicly ridiculed for being a fucking moron.

    I asked this above - should Valve/Steam put in development effort to prevent all instances of you using the software in any other way than precisely what they sanctify? I think this raises more questions than it answers. Not to mention, there's very little software that does this (I can find exceptions of course, but they'd number fewer than a fraction of a percent of all software). You can install all sorts of shitware on random Windows OSes just fine, only to have a broken install when you actually go to use it.

    Once again, this isn't new or limited to Linux, but it seems Linux gets way more scrutiny from an audience desperate to blame it for everything under the sun instead of their inability to read instructions. I'm at a loss as to why Linux needs to protect users from all and any possible scenario of their own missteps, but under Windows it's just apparently obviously stupid somehow and perfectly fine to ridicule people who don't know how to use it? Sounds a hell of a lot like my comments on intuition vs learned behaviour, and sounds a hell of a lot like the real issue is people expecting Linux to be a "free Windows clone" when it isn't. Classic false premise.

    Not to mention LTT would have done everything in his power to ignore it and keep going anyway, because obeying the documentation wouldn't have been one tenth as clickbaity. Or possibly had it actually stopped him, a clickbaity video on how Steam is hampering his computing freedoms and Linux is fucked, anyway. All I smell is someone desperate to label everyone else the villain instead of recognising their own inability.

    Once again, I feel like madness has overtaken the world, and all common sense was lost. People seem utterly desperate to blame a third party villain instead of reaching within, acknowledging their own failures, and improving themselves (particularly in this case when a million others did it correctly and silently without the hype and hooplah).

    Yes. For so many reasons, yes.

    Seriously, Fuck LTT. Everyone who watches him gets stupider. Future university entrance requirements will list "never having watched an LTT video" as a pre-requisite.

    He's so stupid, rocks are envious.

    He's so stupid he takes 2 hours to watch 60 minutes.

    He's so stupid he cooked his own complimentary breakfast.

    He's so stupid he still sends faxes but puts stamps on them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
  11. OP
    OP
    Yehat

    Yehat Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Messages:
    663
    Location:
    Melbourne
    I waited for a few people to respond before giving my opinion fwiw.

    Steam Support
    The issue pointed out relating to the Steam supported version is certainly valid and I don't discount it.
    What I did was download the latest PopOS iso and throw it in a VM (having not used it before, the install itself was painless and only took a few mins as I accepted the defaults).

    And after installation, to be fair, from point the point of view of a new user to Linux, the distro makes it look Steam is an application that should work on their platform.
    Their "Pop Shop" application, when you open it offers Steam as a choice on the very landing page itself, no search required and I could just select it below and click install.
    upload_2021-11-18_13-31-12.png

    Additionally the company that creates the distribution System76 have a support page on their site advising how to install Steam from either the Pop Shop or via terminal (using apt like LTT did after Pop Shop failed).
    https://support.system76.com/articles/linux-gaming/

    I'm not saying just because Pop Shop has the app that means it now somehow meets Valve's requirements, just what it looks like to a common user is: Steam is available and it's reasonable to think they should be able to install/use it.

    Package Issues
    The issue with the installation in the LTT case is the packaging of Steam in Launchpad in PopOS that created the underlying issue (as their dev explained). That's not a Linux/Steam issue that's a PopOS packaging/repo issue and one which has since been fixed.

    Taking Steam out of it - What about the Package Manager ?
    So lets say the issue didn't happen with Steam, say it was another desktop application fully supported in PopOS that had a packaging type error in their repo.

    For me, the the query is I had was:
    Yes the package manager did provide them with verbose warnings and controls around their decision as pointed out (you have to type a full sentence instead of just pressing enter or Y/N).
    But should the package manager have prompted the user to nuke their desktop environment in the first place, when all they were trying to do was install a standard application ? I don't think that's reasonable logic in the package manager, in all but the most edge cases the user is not going to need to remove critical desktop packages, and so it shouldn't even give the option (just imho).

    From what I saw in the 2nd video, it mentions PopOS uses a fork of apt. So you can still now remove packages from apt in PopOS, but somehow it seems to detect if the packages are critical to it's operation it now doesn't provide a choice and just aborts. This is the code fix posted earlier in action.

    upload_2021-11-18_13-52-15.png
    ...
    <<prints out the packages that are going to be removed>>
    Then...
    upload_2021-11-18_13-53-6.png
    There is a way to allow packages to be nuked still but it involves creating/editing system files to allow this feature now.

    tldr: I still think the user is somewhat at fault because if you get a massive set of prompts/warnings that should give you cause to pause. But the notion that installing a standard application via standard means allows users to nuke their entire desktop isn't reasonable either. That's on PopOS and they've since addressed.
     
    CRTified likes this.
  12. CRTified

    CRTified Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2021
    Messages:
    503
    Pop!_OS issue found, Pop!_OS issue fixed. Polarising Youtuber's hand lightly burned.

    The matter need not be more.

    People who hate him now hate him more, vice versa the opposite, and the world still turns on it's axis.

    Shitty mainstream content is still the most popular type of thing in every standard area of life, I gave up throwing anger at that concept a long time ago, when I realised all it gave me was an angry life.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
  13. Dilbery

    Dilbery Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,473
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    In all fairness, would you have read the doco or made the video first?
     
  14. elvis

    elvis OCAU's most famous and arrogant know-it-all

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    46,806
    Location:
    Brisbane
    No question, video first. Gotta get in early on ClickBaitBux before someone else does as stupid thing, films it, and steals my hype.

    BRB making a "sudo rm -rf /" video and then whining about how "Linux" didn't read my mind and send muscular goons to my house to prevent me putting in my sudo password. Imma be rich!
     
    sammy_b0i and Dilbery like this.
  15. PabloEscobar

    PabloEscobar Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    14,678
    I wasn't talking about "Linux" (what even is Linux).
    My questions were specific to the Pop!Os distribution and repository.
     
  16. elvis

    elvis OCAU's most famous and arrogant know-it-all

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    46,806
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Precisely. See below...

    It shouldn't be, because it's not supported by Steam.

    Why not install Steam on an Amiga 600? Or a toaster? Or a dead badger?

    "Linux" != "any random distro I feel like fucking about with". Install it on the fucking supported thing, listed on the fucking website of the fucking thing you're installing. Fuck.
     
  17. flu!d

    flu!d Motoring and Intel forum admin

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    21,043
    Oh fuck...

    I'm crying right now. Comment scribbled down for future use.
     
  18. CRTified

    CRTified Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2021
    Messages:
    503
    A relaxing yarn around the camp fire.

    xpl.jpg
     
    jjjc_93, Yehat and flu!d like this.
  19. elvis

    elvis OCAU's most famous and arrogant know-it-all

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    46,806
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I warned you all. You didn't listen.
     
    sammy_b0i, flu!d and CRTified like this.
  20. NSanity

    NSanity Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2002
    Messages:
    18,648
    Location:
    Brisbane


    Ahhh i see you're doing a cloud migration.

    At any rate, we've hashed this out a lot on discord - barriers to adoption are bad. Desktop linux suffers artificial difficulty/complexity due to shitty design surrounding ui/ux/documentation/architecture.

    Anytime anyone calls this out a rather vocal chunk of the linux community will boil the response down to:

    a) "Well if you don't know, you shouldn't use it"
    b) "What do you expect for free/its open source fix it yourself"

    Both of which are shit responses.

    A good chunk of my day job is fixing stupid, inefficiency and various other things. If the goal isn't to improve, removing barriers to adoption then your product is fucked and deserves to die.

    From what i've seen isnt' Linus saying 'Linux is fucked" - its Linux desktop isn't ready (still) for the average user.

    And by putting the experience that a "normal" gamer would have trying to play games on linux out to the web for millions to see *hopefully* will bring focus to improve these UX gaps.

    And elvis even you can see the benefit for this from what seems to be your mortal enemy - because no-one is going to try and improve this if they think no-one cares. People care.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
    fredhoon, Yehat and Dilbery like this.

Share This Page

Advertisement: