The Pop!OS debacle (LTT)

Discussion in 'Other Operating Systems' started by Yehat, Nov 17, 2021.

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How much is LTT at fault for Pop! Nuke

  1. 100% LTT / 0% system - It's the users fault for not reading / understanding the warning

    14 vote(s)
    25.9%
  2. 75% LTT / 25% system - He should've read the prompts but the system shouldn't give that option

    7 vote(s)
    13.0%
  3. 50% LTT / 50% system - Equally at fault

    5 vote(s)
    9.3%
  4. 25% LTT / 75% system - System shouldn't have given that option, but he should've read the prompts

    20 vote(s)
    37.0%
  5. 0% LTT / 100% system - It's the dev's/system's fault for allowing the behaviour

    4 vote(s)
    7.4%
  6. I Like Dragons!!!!

    4 vote(s)
    7.4%
  1. miicah

    miicah Member

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    For your example, is Windows 98 supported by Steam? Will it even let you install/run the exe on 98?
     
  2. millsy

    millsy Member

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    I think this is the issue really isn't it. If a software package only supports one OS, it should be checking for that during the install process
     
  3. phreeky82

    phreeky82 Member

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    Lol the anger this has triggered.

    I haven't watched the vid, LTT pisses me off for many reasons, but he isn't the only one at fault.

    Sif installing steam should nuke your desktop env on a desktop-focused distro, that isn't excusable. People can get all in a rage at Steam and Linus all they want, but if it is in a PopOS repo then they fucked up.

    The community are also to blame to some extent, PopOS is pretty hyped up and no doubt Linus stumbled on some of the hype and ease-of-use gibberish online so picked it, downloaded the latest and off he went. IMO all major distros default download option should be an LTS release.

    Where I do agree with you elvis is the distro choice thing. If you are a noob, stick to something more noob friendly. I'm not a noob but I also don't have an excess amount of time to fuck around and get things working so I use 20.04 and get on with my life. Steam works wonderfully on 20.04, I think they have done a great job.
     
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  4. cvidler

    cvidler Member

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    I can't stand LTT - one of a very few channels I have blocked on YT.

    he's a clown. pretended to know it all and inform others. he's the last person you should be listening to about tech.

    and it's not bagging on him for the fun of it. of the few videos I have watched from LTT, each one has glaringly obvious flaws, to at best, doing things in a less than ideal way yet presenting it as the best way to do X.

    he should not be teaching anyone anything.

    takes two to tango (fault on both sides). OS broken, but user ignored a raft of warnings. typical windows user, click the OK button as fast as possible without reading the error.
     
  5. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I haven't tested, but I'm fairly certain it'll allow you to install on WinXP despite not supporting WinXP.

    Heads up: there are countless "sudo apt-get <command>" things (including "install") that will do this. It's in no way limited to Steam nor Pop!_OS.

    If you install conflicting packages (again, ANY package, not just Steam), apt will scream loudly that it's about to remove those conflicts. And yes, those conflicts will be YOUR ENTIRE DESKTOP if apt doesn't like it. (You can find these out in advance too - every single package lists it's conflicts - this is the power of apt's conflict resolution).

    I know Windows users probably baulk at the lack of nanny-state protections here, but this is precisely how apt is designed. You know that "dependency hell" that people keep whining about? Apt fixes that BY FORCE.

    But, here's the kicker - it warns you. BIG FUCKING WORDS all over your screen telling you "warning, I'm about to shift heaven and Earth to satisfy the very fucking stupid thing you asked me to do".

    And this is the kicker - computers don't do random things. Computers do exactly what you ask them to. And Linux gives you FULL CONTROL.

    Want to see something UTTERLY DIABOLICAL? Type this into your terminal:

    "sudo rm -rf /"

    You have every freedom, including the freedom to totally fuck your own system. Welcome to computers.

    So once again, Linus Tool Time decided to FORCE a repository into an UNSUPPORTED OS, was greeted with a BIG FUCK OFF WARNING about the consequences, clicked the "Y" FOR YES button as acknowledgement of his actions, and promptly fucked his system.

    He was handed the gun, with a warning.

    He cocked the hammer, with a warning.

    He pointed it at his foot, with a warning.

    He pulled the trigger, with a warning.

    HE SHOT HIMSELF IN THE FOOT, AND CRIED.

    Yes, it's everyone else's fault, clearly.

    Linux is not Windows. I don't know how many times I have to say it. Maybe once more. LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS. You can't do Windows shit in Linux and expect to Dunning-Kruger your way to victory. They aren't the same thing, and people who expect it to be need to either learn new skills, or deal with the consequences.

    I know this comes across as "RTFM" or "git gud" kind of commentary, but the reality is if you're diving into a brand new OS with root/admin privileges, you need to know what you're doing. The other reality is that Linux gives you ALL THE CONTROL. This is it's very philosophy. You can't do shit on Android/iOS by design. You can do moderately more on Windows, but you really don't have full control still. Linux grants you every control, including the option to totally fuck yourself. Demanding that it should put protections in place to prevent that goes against the very ethos of true computing freedom.

    This is a philosophical thing. True freedom is total chaos and anarchy. Do what you want, when you want, including potentially harming yourself. But if that's what you want, and you pushed "Yes" when prompted, then have at it.

    Welcome to true freedom. If this scares you, that's OK. Head back to the safety belts and restraints of an OS that nannies you. And I don't say that as an insult - we need diversity in operating systems. We need operating systems that protect users from poor choices. But Linux isn't that, and making Linux that will never happen when it's the literal wild west of computing by design. That doesn't make it better. Just different. And that's perfectly OK.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
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  6. millsy

    millsy Member

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    What I'm hearing is 'the notification message was not clear just how royally this install was going to significantly modify his machine'
     
  7. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Honestly, when has this ever been up for debate?

    I've long said Linux is perfectly fine for corporate desktops, precisely because "average users" don't get sudo/root access, and can't pull an LTT and delete their whole desktop, and you have competent people managing the complex things behind the scenes.

    You can fuck yourself pretty good in Windows too with admin rights. That's why we don't give users admin rights, and why we have professional IT people to nanny them.

    "Improve" is entirely subjective here. Nerfing apt because Linus is a fuckwit is not "improving Linux".

    Once again, you want a $free Windows replacement. That's not what Linux is. Please go and nag the ReactOS developers instead. Understand the difference.

    Beyond that, I repeat what I said above - this is all because of SteamDeck hype, and Linus trying something he has no clue about. SteamDeck doesn't even go down this path because it's a pre-packaged thing with zero need to ever see a CLI.

    SteamDeck is your "Linux needs to be more user friendly" saviour, because it's an embedded system, and NOT a desktop OS. But of course the great irony would be the wailing and gnashing of teeth if Valve locked you all out of the back end. But I'm sure there'll be wailing and gnashing of teeth when they don't, and people fuck their installs. Why? Because either way, nobody can take ownership of their dumb actions, and want to blame third parties regardless of their own fuckups.

    I mean, this isn't complex. This is literally one-sentence, plain English, clear as fucking day right here:

    https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/1114-3F74-0B8A-B784

    Important:
    Currently, Steam for Linux is only supported on the most recent version of Ubuntu LTS with the Unity, Gnome, or KDE desktops.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
  8. theSeekerr

    theSeekerr Member

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    I'm not going to watch the video again to find the timestamp, but like I said the other day...

    It's EXTREMELY clear.
     
  9. millsy

    millsy Member

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    If that's the case so be it, I refuse to contribute to the click farm :)
     
  10. mAJORD

    mAJORD Member

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    I thought he had to type the words " do as I say" or something like that to proceed?
     
  11. phreeky82

    phreeky82 Member

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    Well I'm not watching the damn video, but elvis your rage is a bit extreme. It's Linus doing what, honestly, lots of Linux noobs are going to do.

    This is the sort of BS that I have to try and remotely help my father with all of the time. Quite simply, there are enough fixes required that involve noobs copying + pasting apt commands in without understanding them, and most work, that they become accustomed to it and so don't read them properly.

    Just because Linus has made a poor choice in distro, actions or whatever else, does not excuse a design fault. Quit being on the defensive. Failures are rarely the fault of one party.
     
  12. theSeekerr

    theSeekerr Member

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    What design fault? The system had safeguards. It specifically told him that he was doing something dumb and made him do something unusual (type a specific phrase) to consent to it proceeding with the dumb thing, on the understanding that he was thereby telling it "I know exactly what I'm doing and I'm doing this on purpose".
     
  13. OP
    OP
    Yehat

    Yehat Member

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    To save people watching the video:

    The apt command prints out a lot of package related info about what's going to change as a result of running the command, not all of which is shown below (which to be fair to a new user may appear like a wall of text as they won't understand what the packages would do, they are just trying to install steam).

    However, as theSeekerr says it contains warnings which are very explicit at the end and he did need to type a sentence to complete the command, not just press enter or Y/N, (which is why he's not completely blameless imo).

    The yellow highlighting is by me not the console.
    upload_2021-11-19_12-5-3.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
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  14. NSanity

    NSanity Member

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    Not sure if this was also the issue that all you chucklefucks saying "go research the problem" - ignored the fact that the reason he ended up in bash dumping a huge bit of text was because the research said "put this huge string into bash and press go" - which is quite often the fix to *many* things for linux when you're attempting to follow documentation/howto's that hasn't been updated to account for newer packages, distro releases, etc.

    I know you want to die on this hill - but this was literally only 1 of the problems he (and the other guy Luke) ran into.

    Also - apparently this is fixed, as a direct result of this video.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
  15. CRTified

    CRTified Member

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    I'm going to veer into the fun of Pedantic Word Zone here. It's rarely the most agreeable of places, and I may regret it.

    "This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!"

    Average person: Exactly what I am doing, is "installing Steam". I know it. The OS's "Software Center" specifically told me to do this. Tick. Continue.

    I contend that the explicitness of a warning can be highly prone to misinterpretation depending on the knowledge level of the user. "know exactly what you're doing" has a certain degree of "you need to be qualified before you'll truly know how qualified you are" ambiguity about it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
  16. phreeky82

    phreeky82 Member

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    And yet some make out there is no issue, how can it be "fixed"?

    People need to realise that if you want to target the mainstream, you need to safeguard against the dumb mainstream.

    Arguably if it really does require you to type a "Yes, do as I say" type of message then Linus is a full moron. However the message should clearly indicate that a desktop env will no longer be installed.

    It is amazing how angry people get about this, such sensitive petals.
     
  17. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    False premise spotted. Mainstream already satisfied by XBox/PlayStation. Complete with UI that won't delete itself.

    Sounds like the perfect solution to Linus' problem.

    I'm glad you've finally understood the root issue. See screenshot posted above.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
  18. phreeky82

    phreeky82 Member

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    Well "mainstream" is obviously a lose term, but I've had many a friend/family member go fine on Linux until gaming killed it.

    I'm glad you've finally understood the root issue. See screenshot posted above.[/QUOTE]

    Well I'm not watching his stupid video.

    Again, more than one issue here. If you think that only a moron would ignore a warning message that they don't understand and just choose to go ahead, then a very significant portion of the population are morons. It's the default action for a lot of people when they don't understand the message. That said, Linus SHOULD be somewhat less of a moron given his technical nature, however...
     
  19. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Is that a bad thing? Is Linux "hurting" because of this?

    I mean, I'm getting wildly off topic here, but these discussions always end up at a reductive "if Linux wants more users....", with no real discussion around what that means, if it's indeed better, or what the fuck "Linux" even is in that context.

    There exist countless excellent platforms to play games on. Arguably ones far superior to PCs even (I repeat, if you want foolproof UX, go use XBox/PlayStation).

    But if that's all off topic, why even bring it up as an argument? Let's stop talking about "what Linux needs to do to get more users", and instead consider that for any given person unfamiliar with a very niche and very powerful piece of software, there needs to be at least a minuscule amount of onus on the individual to not blindly fuck with things they don't fully understand. That still leaves room for improvements in the software, of course. These are not conflicting ideas. But again this reductive "Linux needs to be mainstream and needs more users" follow-on seems so strange to me, when that's really not at all what this is about, when we're quite literally talking the most niche use case of a niche hobby on a niche platform.
     
  20. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    LOL some YouTube fuckstick can't do something in Linux and the world must take notice, seriously go have a reach around with that DT fuckstick and feel like your being informed.

    The world is a retarded place if these 2 are your go too, to be intelligently informed.
     

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