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The Pop!OS debacle (LTT)

Discussion in 'Other Operating Systems' started by Yehat, Nov 17, 2021.

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How much is LTT at fault for Pop! Nuke

  1. 100% LTT / 0% system - It's the users fault for not reading / understanding the warning

    14 vote(s)
    24.6%
  2. 75% LTT / 25% system - He should've read the prompts but the system shouldn't give that option

    7 vote(s)
    12.3%
  3. 50% LTT / 50% system - Equally at fault

    5 vote(s)
    8.8%
  4. 25% LTT / 75% system - System shouldn't have given that option, but he should've read the prompts

    20 vote(s)
    35.1%
  5. 0% LTT / 100% system - It's the dev's/system's fault for allowing the behaviour

    5 vote(s)
    8.8%
  6. I Like Dragons!!!!

    6 vote(s)
    10.5%
  1. phreeky82

    phreeky82 Member

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    Speaking of WTFs, wtf is that supposed to mean?

    The larger the support base of a product, the more investment it gets from those less likely. Support for gaming, hardware manufacturers, and so on. More wining for most Linux users IMO.

    And yeah I don't want more phone calls from my father because he followed some "paste some apt commands into the terminal" guide online and it messed up his system. I refuse to call a guy who is a tradie in his late 60s but using Linux (all of his own choosing) with a majority of success a "moron" because he got stuck/frustrated late at night and followed an online guide without a full understanding.

    Grow up and out of your superiority complex. Humans make mistakes.
     
  2. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Different software catering to different requirements is not a superiority complex. It's a celebration of diversity.

    Homogeneity is not always a noble end goal. Difference can actually be a net positive, where radically different ways of solving problems can flourish.

    Windows is great. I'm happy for it to be what it is, and remain what it is. Linux doesn't need to be "free Windows". Your vital mistake is that you think this is exactly what it should be. And when you dig into it, it's almost the root cause of any thread like this, where people apply their rote, learned behaviours to new and ill-fitting things with dire consequences.

    I'm very ok with the idea that software is different, and some software is not designed for some people. Lord knows there's plenty of software I can't use. I've been blessed to see some of the world's best digital artists and scientific researchers doing magic with software I will never be smart enough to understand. Does that make them elitist or suffer a superiority complex because their software is not easy enough for me as a layperson to understand without destroying my own data? Not at all.

    Diversity is a good thing, in all cases. If all software was a homogeneous blob of sameness, things would be so much worse. We all need to be ok with not knowing it all. I'm perfectly ok with swimming in my lane, and staying away from the things I don't have the capacity to understand because they're not designed for my use case.

    We encourage people to stay away from dangerous things that don't understand every day. Software is no different. It's diverse, it's complex, and sometimes it's dangerous. All of this is perfectly fine.

    As would I. Which is why I didn't.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  3. NSanity

    NSanity Member

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    man why are you still tying this to Windows.

    It has nothing to do with Windows.

    And everything to do with better software, period. The thing you're hung up about is:
    • Pop and their promise to users - we can run steam (despite Valve saying yeah nah, but plenty of people obviously making it nah, yeah).
    • Plenty of people have said it can.
    • There was an edge case that Linus hit that made it not (seemingly from using the GUI package manager).
    • The usual community comment/forum got it wrong (shit happens).
    • Linus borked his shit.
    • Pop agreed this experience was shit.
    • Pop fixed it.
    Your car is safer, more reliable and better in every respect than the utter fucking deathtraps from the 70's. This didn't make people worse drivers. They were always shit - but the great ones are even better than ever.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
  4. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    People wouldn't use PopOS if bloody Gnome devs would stop trying to lock down their DE. PopOS has become the new Linux Mint and Linux Mint was utter garbage IMO.

    I don't consider myself anything beyond an average user and my desktop Linux experience is more polished than my Windows desktop experience. I haven't watched the video, I don't care to watch the video, but if Linus is trying to make the point that Linux isn't ready for the desktop than I can see how parallels are going to be drawn in comparison to Windows as people believe Windows to be the benchmark every other OS should aspire to, even though Windows itself is far from perfect.

    The Linux desktop has been a viable alternative for about four years now, people just have to stop thinking Linux must behave exactly like Windows and be a 'drop in' Windows replacement. Linux is Linux, just like MacOS is MacOS.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  5. CRTified

    CRTified Member

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    I know it's conceited but a certain kind of dignity would prevent me from ever having something named "Pop!_OS" running my system.

    And yes in my experience Mint is found wanting. It's fine. But it's hardly a meaningful improvement over stock Ubuntu, merely a small step sideways into an arguably even-more-limited experience, with the same innards anyway.

    Worst thing about Ubuntu is the sensation of burgeoning bloat and "slowly becoming another Windows" over the past decade.

    (sorry a bit off-topic I just realised, but perhaps it's better than a chorus of involuntary Wilhelm Screams every time LTT's name gets mentioned! :p )
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
    flu!d likes this.
  6. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    I totally agree, it's why I don't run vanilla Ubuntu.
     
    CRTified likes this.
  7. randomman

    randomman Member

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    It is much more straightforward than Windows, no hidden application layers with meaningless errors. I managed to compile my own Linux kernel with a PCI quirk for QEMU even though the instructions were out of date and packages had changed because it basically told me what was missing.
     
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  8. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    Exactly, the verbose instructions are actually quite descriptive - Assuming you actually take the time to read them.
     
  9. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Again, because people constantly want Linux to be "free Windows". They don't realise this of course, because in their head they're not connecting the dots. They'll tell you it's not about being "free Windows", but rather "fixing" Linux by adding a laundry list of features that make it all more like Windows, and then totally miss the logical gap.

    Linux isn't Windows. I'll say it again, slowly for the folks up the back: Linux isn't Windows.

    If a Mac user whined that Windows was too difficult, and needed a long list of features like Mac, OCAU would be there in spades to tell them to fuck off and learn the tool they're using. That's the great irony of this discussion, and it's irony I see daily jumping between numerous desktop OSes with people from all sides screaming at each other that the thing they're familiar with is best, and the thing they're less familiar with needs to change to be more like their comfort levels.

    I mean, fuck, go look at the Windows 11 thread. That's Windows users screaming at Windows users about new/changed/different things ruining their life. That's not even a cross-OS war.

    So no, it's not about "tying it to Windows". It's about waking people up and getting them to see that the enemy isn't any given OS, but rather their complete lack of familiarity.

    And before anyone has a cry, this doesn't prevent OSes changing, improving, being "more user friendly" (whatever the fuck that even means), etc, etc. This can happen too. But you wouldn't advise a complete novice to go in and start messing with the 240V wiring in their house, just like I wouldn't recommend a complete novice dive into Linux and press "Y" to every single prompt in the command line without knowing what the fuck that does. And that's not "gatekeeping" or other such nonsense, that's warning people "here be dragons", and that diving in head-first to dark water can be dangerous. Linux sure as hell has a steep learning curve, but that isn't a bad thing just because it exists - see my other rants about software diversity. Some things in life are easy, some are difficult, and the worst thing that can happen is if we made them all exactly the same. Diversity is good, and you don't need to like or even be able to use all the tools on planet Earth. You might hate some of them, you might be unable to use some of them. That's perfectly OK.

    Education is the solution to all problems. Yes, ALL problems. And yes, things can be improved too. But let's all own the bit where we can all improve ourselves first. In this case, the critical bit of education was "please use the supported distro first, before mucking around with other weird distros". And again, for all the folks who don't get it, Linux's "many distros" concept really isn't a problem. It's just totally unfamiliar for a lot of people, and that doesn't make it wrong or bad. Diversity is good.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and lick the distribution board on the side of my house and then complain when it electrocutes me that the warnings weren't in large enough text.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  10. NSanity

    NSanity Member

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    No. They wanted to game on linux. They didn't want Linux to be Windows. You drew that conclusion.

    They picked a distro that the internet said was good for gaming on linux - that said it supported Steam (regardless of what Steam themselves say - and quite frankly this is a lot of the interesting stuff you and I do in our day jobs, making things work that people say can't). A less than polished experience occurred.

    Whilst I know you have an axe to grind here - I just can't see how you think that a shit UX is better than not. It really just came down to shit failure handling and the very real world experience of trying to resolve your problems thanks to randoms on the internet.

     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    They picked wrong. Education would have prevented all badness, and this entire thread.

    Education is the solution to all things. *ALL* things.

    I repeat - if this was any other topic or subject - if someone came to you and said "I googled some shit and the first hit on the Internet recommended X and it destroyed my thing", your first response would be "google better, do your research". Somehow it all gets warped and the rules change when the subject becomes "video games on a non-Windows platform", every time. Not just on OCAU either. The cognitive dissonance over this topic is incredible.

    I will never not die on the hill of "education prevents badness". I have, will, and shall continue to do my bit to improve education, even if that's an impossible task on a never ending mountain, and my efforts globally go backwards compared to the rate at which people screw things up. No matter what came to pass or what will appear in the future, improving ourselves, our own skills, and our ability to gain new information is perpetually the thing that sets us ahead as human beings. I have no qualms with improving tools for a specific purpose, but even then purpose is specific and subjective, whereas our own learning has almost endless benefit in both our lives and the lives of others.

    Will I likely live a life of constantly depressing reality-checks as people continue to reject education? Maybe. But I'd rather try than give up on that.

    And once I pay off my mortgage and stop cleaning up corporate IT messes, I'm going to open my damned "Elvis' Linux School of Not Fuckwittery and Occasional Retro Video Games" and educate folks some more. OCAUers get a life membership discount.

    And what a fantastic foot note to end on. See my point above about "improvements" being non-universal, and always to an end goal that doesn't suit everyone all the time.

    Ubuntu covers the two-way support that Pop!_OS doesn't (Ubuntu supports Steam, Steam supports Ubuntu, which is 2x the documented support of Pop!_OS's claims). And yet, here's an end user who doesn't like Ubuntu "because bloat", where "bloat" typically is a bunch of added things on an otherwise lean system designed to satisfy a wider array of users.

    You can't satisfy all of the people all of the time, that much is a fact. Ubuntu is *the* distro aimed at "regular users" who want to just have a functioning and simple desktop. It's also THE ONLY distro supported by Steam (no, I don't care what Pop!_OS otherwise claim). And for all of Ubuntu's near 2 decades of constant improvement, it now doesn't satisfy a subset of users who want a leaner and less bloated experience precisely because of these "improvements" that everyone else claimed "were needed".

    "Improvements" are subjective too. There is zero objectivity in UX, and like all things that boil down to individual interpretation, pre-learned information matters, individual experience matters, education matters.

    Perfect summation right here, not just because "use Ubuntu instead" would have prevented this entire discussion, but because even "Ubuntu" annoys some people despite working perfectly with Steam via 2-way documentation between application vendor and platform.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  12. CRTified

    CRTified Member

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    As an aside interjection : that's why people like you need to teach teachers, not individuals. And to some significant degree you do so, like here (+ perhaps in your work, I don't know), which is cool. But just saying, as an overall principle.

    Those teachers/leaders then go on to branch that goodness out to a greater number.
     
    elvis likes this.
  13. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    This I 100% agree with. RPi foundation goes out of its way to do this (entire courses dedicated to educators across all sectors). But even then, I feel it's impact is minimal at best (non-existent outside of the UK, for certain).

    Insert my standard rant here about the debacle that is Australian formalised education (again, nothing to do with teachers, everything to do with administrators and governments).

    If I had a few spare million, this is precisely what I'd do with my time.
     
    CRTified likes this.
  14. NSanity

    NSanity Member

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    I very much enjoyed this chat.

    Like i said, if the attraction of software development as a career that today has, existed with the tools/teaching methods we had - the world of software would be a whole lot more interesting.
     
    CRTified and elvis like this.
  15. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    Since when is popOS representative of all Linux?

    If popOS is a problem then use that in describing the problem because Linux is very usable as a gaming platform SteamOS and lutris prove there is no issue. Linus has proven many times over the years that not just Linux but computing in general that he has NFI what he is talking about once the issue goes past clicking next, why should reading and understanding a cli in Linux be any different?

    There is a thread on Linux gaming which I started in 2008, that's how long ocau members have enjoyed mainstream gaming on Linux.
     
  16. NSanity

    NSanity Member

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    Fixed that for you.

    At least be honest with yourself.

    You can game on Linux if you're skilled and persistent - but don't pretend that you're getting even 50% of the popular titles that people want to play, as they launch - with your friends who uses Windows/Xbox Game Pass/etc
     
  17. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I dunno, Valve are claiming better numbers than that already in preparation for SteamDeck, including a tonne of anti-cheat stuff literally in just the last 30-60 days, and more on the way (plenty of "no comments", and I do think some devs are waiting until post-release to see if it's worth it):

    https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/5/...ted-games-anti-cheat-proton-eac-battleye-epic

    Certainly not 100%, but far better than 50%. "Bleeding edge" is always cited as the reason it's all a massive failure, but not everyone is only playing bleeding edge of course. Steam has over 120M players, and they're not all playing only things that came out this week.

    In b4 "trolololol Valve gon fail dis hardware like all their previous hardware".

    Extra irony points: LTT loves SteamDeck :lol:
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  18. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    LTT isn't he king of the Windows Nerds and supposed to have skills? Yet he failed because he couldn't RTFM and you pile on like he is some fucken messiah who has a clue, yet you are being clueless and antagonistic toward the fact that he failed at software installation just like all the sheeple using Windows or MacOS, and then you pollute the debate with false misleading information like some Trumpian going on about Qanon!

    https://store.steampowered.com/search/?os=linux
    2.5% of the entire Steam catalogue is unavailable to Linux!

    Lets not forget the its the Software Studios that decide what platforms they will support not the OS developers! And as Steam has proven 97.5% of games it supplies will run on Linux! so its possible.

    Post this shit in the PUB where it belongs because PC Enthusiasts have been capable of running Linux for gaming successfully for more than a decade, and sheeple are still incapable of doing anything on their PCs after 40 years of Windows.

    I thought we had progressed past this tripe!
     
  19. demiurge3141

    demiurge3141 Member

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    I mean it's literally called Pop!_OS. Why act surprised when it went pop?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
    Statitica and GumbyNoTalent like this.
  20. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    I game under Linux, using Proton and Lutris the process is no more painful than it is under Windows. In fact when you do encounter issues, it's not uncommon for the same fixes needed under Windows to rectify the problem with the title running under Linux. Essentially, Linux is now Win32 compatible. The only problem is poorly implemented client side DRM/anti cheat.

    Even Box86 is making significant improvements, now supporting DXVK. The answer to the question "Can it run Crysis" is a yes:

    https://boilingsteam.com/box64-can-now-run-crysis-on-arm-with-dxvk/
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021

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