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The Pop!OS debacle (LTT)

Discussion in 'Other Operating Systems' started by Yehat, Nov 17, 2021.

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How much is LTT at fault for Pop! Nuke

  1. 100% LTT / 0% system - It's the users fault for not reading / understanding the warning

    14 vote(s)
    24.1%
  2. 75% LTT / 25% system - He should've read the prompts but the system shouldn't give that option

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  3. 50% LTT / 50% system - Equally at fault

    5 vote(s)
    8.6%
  4. 25% LTT / 75% system - System shouldn't have given that option, but he should've read the prompts

    20 vote(s)
    34.5%
  5. 0% LTT / 100% system - It's the dev's/system's fault for allowing the behaviour

    5 vote(s)
    8.6%
  6. I Like Dragons!!!!

    6 vote(s)
    10.3%
  1. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I think if there's one thing everyone in this thread can agree on, it's that there was a clear incompatibility between those two bits of software.

    Whose fault it was - this appears to be the crux of our arguing. But regardless of fault, at the time of Linus' adventures there did exist a Linux distro option that would have allowed him to do exactly what he intended to do - full GUI, zero console install of Steam with no issues, and one that is listed by Valve themselves as supported.

    So I repeat, intent matters when choice is on the line. I mean, this is no different than what we beat into our customers right? The brand on the tin matters little - what matters more is what you want to do, how you want to do it, and how much money/time you have to throw at it now and into the future (long term maintenance and all that).

    With that clinical, objective mindset in place, when choosing between Distro X that's unknown, and Distro Y that's known, certified, documented and supported, what would a better option have been to avoid this entire problem?

    Pop!_OS lying about their capabilities is definitely an issue, but again let's look at the world we're familiar with - don't all vendors lie about their capabilities? And how do we see past those lies? We go back to our first principles of how to compare any number of options of any product we care about. Specific to this - taking the distro vendor's word for it alone is not enough, without then cross-referencing it with the application.

    And yeah, this is all hobby/home shit about video games. But again, this is new territory for the user in question, so just winging it without a bit of research is about as clever as buying a TV without reading reviews.

    But the good news is, if a TV doesn't live up to your expectations, you can get a replacement or money back. Likewise, his distro of choice didn't live up to expectations, there are both replacements and full refunds on offer. :)

    "Ubunut" is my secret Linux porn site. You don't have access without paid subscription, even if I give away the source for free.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
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  2. NSanity

    NSanity Member

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    Eh lying? I've not seen anyone say that after the obvious bug was resolved that it was good/bad/otherwise.

    Bugs is bugs. Happens everywhere.


    He did. Thats how he got there.

    But you've just said googling for linux gaming is bad. you need to use reddit (which you hate) and /r/linux_gaming.

    something something Covid Vaccines is billgates mindcontrol. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH?

    :D
     
  3. Symon

    Symon Castigat ridendo mores

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    Like I said, mostly it is due to me not being arsed to fix it myself. My home server runs Ubuntu and it has at least 2 years of uptime, if it encounters a problem I'm more inclined to try to fix it as it took me quite a while to get it set up the way I want it. Not so much with the Raspi's.

    That's certainly true, but it depends on your appetite to do the learning. If I have the motivation then I'll put the time into it, but these days I'm more inclined to want it to just work.

    Yep, it appears we are in furious agreement there.
     
  4. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    No, he used the PopOS 'app store' as far as I'm aware without going through the pain of watching a video on a moron and his machine.

    Had he just gone to the Steam site and downloaded and installed the .deb installer, which can be installed via the GUI, chances are he would have experienced absolutely no issues. The fact you don't know the difference indicates you aren't as familiar with the Linux desktop as you state you are.

    Great. However this by no means indicates that the Linux desktop is any more unreliable or unpolished than any other desktop out there. The use of terminal is very much necessary under macOS once you get past the basics.

    Where issues surrounding the number of Windows fanboi's becomes immediately apparent. What boggles my brain is why they care so much if someone games under an OS other than Windows? Diversity is a great thing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  5. Symon

    Symon Castigat ridendo mores

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    You could say the same about Windows too, the command line and powershell still exist for the same reasons.
     
  6. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    You can, I use both all the time. Installing software via GUI is a bloated way to install software and not ideal for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

    In literally every instance people will scroll through an EULA and click 'I agree' to install software without so much as a second thought as to the repercussions of doing so - What LTT did was in no way different.
     
  7. NSanity

    NSanity Member

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    If an App Store isn't a package manager by another name....

    Again, all of this is irrelevant. This is the Pop_OS experience. Which was broken. Its now fixed.

    Citation needed.

    I know dozens of people who use MacOS for work and play and don't even know terminal exists...

    What fanbois? As Symon mentioned previously - Linus has tried to replicate the experience of someone who has just been told by people like yourselves in this thread "linux is great for gaming" - then tried to do it without speed dialing Linus Torvalds directly.

    The people who brought Windows into this is a bunch of people who wanted Linus to fail. This was simply a bug that community support led him down a path that went from an application that didn't work to an OS that is going to be extremely difficult for a novice to recover.
     
  8. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    The app store uses the package manager, that doesn't change the fact that the app store is an 'entirely' different repository. As stated, I've installed Steam a vast number of times, I even have it running on my Pi400, and I've never had a problem. On my x86 PC I download the .deb installer from the valve site itself and install Steam via the GUI just like Windows with no problems whatsoever.

    The fact you don't know the difference here speaks volumes.

    Because of the fact the software was downloaded from an entirely different repository. The software in Ubuntu based 'software stores' is based around LTS support and as a result is nearly always out of date, as such I hardly ever use them; and as far as I'm aware this variant of Steam was downloaded from PopOS's own repository. Either that or PopOS had made changes to their package manager resulting in the issues experienced.

    That's because other people fix their shit for them as they can't figure out terminal.

    It is great for gaming, as stated, it's the second most desirable x86/64 OS for gaming there is under Steam and that's not even including Lutris - I have no idea just WTF the creator of Linux has to do with any of this.

    Honestly, it's plainly obvious you're extremely opinionated regarding a 'desktop' OS you have little to no experience with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  9. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I can only repeat what I said above, and at least three other times across this thread - there was no cross-checking of support.

    Linus found Pop!_OS claiming Steam support written down somewhere. He did not find Steam claiming Pop!_OS support written down anywhere (because that doesn't exist). Yes, I understand this is frustrating for him and you and lots of other people. But if one of your customers came to you with the same sorts of issues - where they'd only verified support in one direction, you'd be quick to point out what was missed when doing a post-event autopsy.

    Possible outcomes:

    1) Go through disaster, report bug to vendor, fix bug with vendor, clean up from disaster, make video, OCAU thread, arguing (we are here)

    2) Choose more appropriate distro, have zero issues, make video anyway, no OCAU thread, no arguing (this is where I'd rather be)

    Other than Pop!_OS fixing their issue, the single best thing that can come from this is that Linus learned a new Linux skill, even if he lost a finger in the process. The worst thing is that he learns nothing, and continues to steamroll dangerously into things he doesn't understand despite the already obvious red flags. I don't have high hopes for the future.

    I think you've gotten lost in a couple of different points there (mixing up three separate paths of conversation). On this particular point, Pop!_OS says it supports Steam, but Steam doesn't say the same in reverse.

    Conversely, Ubuntu says it supports Steam AND Steam says it supports Ubuntu. Ignoring other comments about /r/linux_gaming not being a complete pack of arseholes (it was literally just a response to the "all Linux people are militant neckbeards" comment that came up somewhere), my point in this thread of conversation is this two-way support relationship that would have made this entire thread non-existent had it been followed.

    Perhaps not furious, but sure. I guess the question is - what's your intent? Do you want to continue trying Linux, knowing that effort has to be put in? Or is it just a casual jaunt for you, and you're not that interested?

    Whatever your intent is, that's fine. But I repeat - there's not a lot of options right now when it comes to using a complex tool where a certain volume of learning isn't required to get you over the initial hurdle (that may or may not change in the future - arguably Linux is easier today than ever before, but still not as easy as it will be in years to come). And I'm happy to help (fire up a thread with your specific problem, and I'll do my best to solve it directly, sans "RTFM" style comments). But if you don't have the time and energy (which is fine), then Linux might not be for you (which is also fine).

    And before the complaints start - that's not gatekeeping. That's setting realistic expectations. If anyone wants to prove me wrong and insist they can just charge on in to Linux without some skills acquisition, please be my guest and share your experiences. But as someone who actually gets paid to train folks in Linux, I can't stress enough that realistic expectations DO need to be set, and time DOES need to be set aside, just as you would learning any new complex thing (even if you want it to be less complex in the future, the reality is that it isn't right now).
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  10. Symon

    Symon Castigat ridendo mores

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    I've learned just enough about linux to do what I want to do with it. I use it on my Raspi's that do a variety of things and my Ubuntu box which is used for lancache, plex, torrents, etc. I don't use it as my desktop OS and I have no real desire to do so, Windows does everything I need in that space so see no need to change. For servers that just sit on the network and chug away doing their thing and don't need regular interaction, that's where linux works for me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
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  11. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    Which still doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the Linux desktop. Personally I see running Windows outside of a VM on a Linux host as a backwards step; having said that I have no need for Windows, even isolated in its own VM.
     
  12. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Ah OK, sorry, I thought that was your goal hence my questioning. I got myself confused.

    I wonder if there's anyone in this thread currently dabbling with Linux for gaming or contemplating the switch, outside of everyone already embedded deep in the active Linux gaming thread we have going?
     
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  13. Symon

    Symon Castigat ridendo mores

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    I didn't intend to suggest otherwise, just answering the question posed by elvis
     
  14. NSanity

    NSanity Member

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    no its clearly flawless and anyone who has any problem ever should be removed from society.

    :rolleyes:
     
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  15. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    KODOS, well done thank you for your contributions.
     
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  16. Quadbox

    Quadbox Member

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    Wait, what. You're saying Arch and Gentoo arent appropriate choices for a new linux user!?!?! :p
     
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  17. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    No OS is flawless, that's the point. There's two sides to this coin and it's obvious you're only familiar with one.

    There is a significant undertone that Linux belongs on servers, while you state you don't use Linux on the desktop beyond, perhaps, a RPi. You should try that Pi on Windows, that'll highlight one significant advantage regarding Linux on the desktop.

    I know, crazy eh? Just as well I've never been one to follow the crowd. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  18. OP
    OP
    Yehat

    Yehat Member

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    For the original issue, there is a response from the Principle Engineer from System76 below.

    For context the initial discussion below around Github is that when the original issue occurred a System76 dev posted on twitter (the post is since deleted) apparently to the effect that LTT should've raised a defect via GitHub. To which the reddit response was that many end users would've not known how to use GitHub (let alone to raise issues). Then the System76 dev's response to the whole issue followed.

    Source reddit

    Whether or not a "normal" user should be expected to use Github to raise defects is debatable, but other than that I really liked that they came out on the front foot and owned the issue itself, no side stepping, no deflecting the blame, simply stated they dropped the ball, and what they're doing to improve the future experience. Software/Packaging bugs happen it's unfortunate this one happened on "the big stage", but their actions since, and the dev's response will win them fans as well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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  19. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    I've reported many software issues on GitHub, and I'll be the first person to state I'm no coder. GitHub is literally one of the largest platforms to do so.

    However, there's Linux users, and then there's YouTube channel owners looking to troll Linux. I can assure you LTT has most likely experienced issues under Windows that are possibly just as dramatic, Linus just never created a video on it.

    Classing tech reviewers as 'normies' is pretty interesting however.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  20. CRTified

    CRTified Member

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    Quite bad luck for them that LTT's test coincided with those few hours.

    (not that this will affect them meaningfully)
     

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