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Unreal Engine v5

Discussion in 'Video Cards & Monitors' started by RnR, May 14, 2020.

  1. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I said already - because "final pixels" means different things to different people. And often people saying words like "final" are not involved for the last 2 months of the workflow.

    Agreed. I said as much.

    Point remains the same. Modification of pixels is done after "final pixels" statement. I'd still bet you get compositors (who do a LOT more than people ever realise) and editors fiddling around in there too, before even getting to grade. Same happens on every production everywhere.

    The tools on set don't change the human factor of how these things are made. Something technology enthusiasts easily forget. And I know this thread is nothing more than harmless gushing over graphics, but the reality of life differs. If you don't care about real life and just want to gush, that's cool too. Stick the guy who works on film on ignore and carry on.

    None of that detracts from how far realtime engines have come. But I'm merely reminding people that we're still a fair way off being able to make a large scale movie 100% in UE and sending that straight to a Cinema or Netflix. There are, however, legitimately people doing it with small scale movies and animations. So that's neat.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  2. OP
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    RnR

    RnR Member

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    Lol - you are just guessing now which means you haven't even read the article that two of us have linked. Its not just rock and outdoor environments, it was also interiors. Remember your original dismissive argument was that EU4 was only being used for pre-vis. Now you have begun talking about colour grading...

    Read the damn article already. Its a really nice trick they use to get this level of quality ;)
     
  3. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Sigh. I read the article. Standard fluff piece. I also have clients, work colleagues and personal friends who work on Disney stuff both past and current/upcoming, and that article doesn't even scratch the surface of what goes on day to day on a complex TV series or movie when it comes to either on set or post and VFX.

    Look, I understand you just want to gush over UE5. And that's cool - gush away. Just please be aware that there's a whole lot of stuff that's missing in the article, the videos posted, and everything else surrounding it. Stuff that's all very boring and technical, but doesn't change the fact that it exists to build a more complete final product.

    Again, if you don't like the reality of that, that's cool. There's still plenty to be excited about in this space. Despite the fact that I'm critical of said article, I too am excited by UE5 and what it offers story tellers. For me, however, that excitement rests more in the video game space than the TV/film space, because of how I interact with these industries.
     
  4. Phido

    Phido Member

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    Oh for sure..

    I don't think any one really disagrees with that I think people aren't aware of the whole process. However, it does seem like they are using UE for the background of many shots, rather than clumsy green screening.. As with everything, it gets touched up later, but its a heck of a lot easy to touch up when basically everything essentially is in the shot, the lighting, the objects, etc.

    Of course colour, contrast and lighting, compositing, etc all happens after filming.

    If there is anything we have learnt about digital effects is don't try and do everything one way. Doing Computer effects in shot used to be rarely done, and if it was done it was to save money in the lowest of budget shots. I love this, because now its a lot cheaper to do a lot of things. Mandalorian punches well above its budget. Also it can focus on story rather than tie itself up focusing on just set dressing and special effects.

    Not really that new, Oblivion famously used digital backgrounds filmed in different locations (and of course touched up digitally). 2013.



    4:30
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  5. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    FWIW, I've worked on a couple of productions for domestic TV where UE gets used for entire virtual sets. It's just a couple of anchors sitting on chairs in a sound stage, and the entire "studio" around them is generated realtime by a game engine.

    So yeah, I've seen that in action, and it's impressive. Very different to a film, however, as it's mostly a very boring room filmed at no higher than 1080i.
     
  6. Phido

    Phido Member

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    Well thats a good point..

    You can see in Madalorion they work within the restrictions of the tech, the backgrounds are almost always out of focus and blurred or obscured.
     
  7. OP
    OP
    RnR

    RnR Member

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    Disney is using UE4 :)
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  8. power

    power Member

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    yeah it's something once you start to see it you know it's a limitation not a stylistic approach.

    the thread is for UE5 gushing
     
  9. OP
    OP
    RnR

    RnR Member

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    Yup - but elvis believes they are using UE5 for some reason. At least that how I read his reply.
     
  10. power

    power Member

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    i doubt his industry cares, they just call it "Unreal Engine".
     
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  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Yeah, there's no real versions of that product per se for us. You just subscribe and use whatever's latest (we'll use build numbers or dates if we're troubleshooting). Changes come both more rapidly and incrementally than in years gone by, but that's a good thing I think.

    A lot of products are going that way, which is causing some headaches elsewhere when it comes to version control and compatibility. But that's a boring problem for pipeline engineers working on multi-year-long VFX jobs to solve, and not something for this thread (or even me to care about any more, as I'm doing less of that these days).

    So yeah, I'll refer to it as a versionless "UE" because of how we consume the product. Insert whatever version appropriate to the time of the production you're talking about, as nobody bothers with old versions on new shows. With that sort of tech, you always want the latest, as there's very little reason to ever go backwards when it comes to visual products.

    Games I think are a little different, as they want a more stable experience across development because the final product is used by the consumer. It makes more sense in games to define a specific version when that whole engine is being delivered as an interactive thing running on hardware, rather than a film where the end user isn't running the engine you made the movie in.

    As above, I don't know or even care really what version they're using (again, the date of the production is more telling than a version number). Disney are renowned for getting software versions that we mere mortals can never see. They always let slip that they have Linux builds of software that the rest of us are stuck on Windows and Mac versions of.

    There's definitely pros to being richer than god in this biz.

    But WRT to workflow, the upper bounds of what's possible in realtime engines, particularly around lighting, is still a hard limit everyone's facing for the meantime. Even Disney.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  12. power

    power Member

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    the same applies to games to an extent except for most people think that UE3 = UE3 or UE4 = UE4 with no thought for if it's a sub version or feature sets and parts of the engine used.

    The UE5 video also points out they are using the RT from the engine too. You will find other devs not using the UE RT and may choose something different. It's a toolkit for people to get to where they want to be at a certain point in development.
     
  13. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Absolutely. And a massive one at that.

    I'm equally fascinated by the audio stuff they're doing now. That is incredible in its own right. There's some crazy maths and physics going on there that I'd love to know more about.
     
  14. PheonixV2

    PheonixV2 Member

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    I don't think anyone was ever under the assumption that using the LED panels and a UE generated background was going to be the shot that they present as the final episode.
    Using UE was a way to get accurate lighting on the actors (removing the green glows) as well as already having the backgrounds already in-shot, removing the need for more compositing later. Moreover it gives the actors something to act against, isntead of having to imagine what the scene actually looks like

    If you properly read the article, you would have also noticed re: blurring, that the environment not in the shot was blurred to decrease computation load, while the 'active' backround directly behind the actors was in focus. As well they had it linked to the camera's focus so it would blur appropriately

    When they tout they have a linux build, that is usually something the software engineers have built themselves, creating drivers to run their programs instead of waiting for epic to release it for them.

    More on UE5, I'm excited to see what they can do to reduce file sizes, I'm keen to have my 80gb games reduced back down to 10gb or less so i don't have to buy a new hard drive each year.
    As well having the royalty cap changed to only after revenue exceeds $1mil will help small scale developers so much!
     
  15. power

    power Member

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    Sony's new tech developed for PS5 is aimed squarely at this.
     
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  16. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Sorry, I wasn't very clear there, and wasn't talking about UE specifically there. More a general comment that Disney regularly get access to things the rest of us don't.

    The "Linux build" comment is something I've seen a few times in other vendor products outside of Epic - products I've desperately needed to put on Linux render farms, and end up having to shoe horn in Windows boxes somewhere, annoyingly. And within Disney internally, they have Renderman stuff that the rest of us don't get for years (different circumstance of course, because they develop it).

    With UE, it wouldn't surprise me at all of Disney get early access to builds. But that's entirely assumption on my behalf, based on previous patterns I've seen with other vendors.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  17. OP
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    RnR

    RnR Member

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    Oooh... any linky?
     
  18. power

    power Member

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    this is a good read.

    https://www.tweaktown.com/news/7134...ep-dive-into-next-gen-storage-tech/index.html

    Unleash the Kraken!

     
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  19. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I know this isn't a PS5 thread, but it's also interesting how they're looking at things like being able to deliver portions of a game digitally, so that you can do things like play the first level/section of a game while the rest keeps loading in the background. So even if the complete game is enormous, you only need a small portion to play your part, and the rest can download in the background.

    At least trying to tie that back to engines like UE, there has to be some clever asset management stuff going on there to get dependencies sorted quickly, and deliver exactly what's needed.

    This sort of stuff is a much cleverer way of working around real world problems, than just merely trying to brute force it with more expensive tin.
     
  20. proffesso

    proffesso Member

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    its very cool tech. im very curious to the lighting system. we've experimented with raytraced gi in ue4 but it's still way too slow for our needs (we'll get the 3080ti at launch and see if the improvements there get us over the line)
    and baking out large data sets is, unfortunately, a necessary evil for now. you just can't beat the speed of a texel lookup.

    if this is using a similar approach to Reyes rendering, then things like pixel shading rates etc become very important for optimization...and since it could all be per-pixel shading rate, things like foveated rendering become extremely compelling.

    and don't buy into any of the unlimited polys etc...not even film uses unlimited polys...they use displacement maps and rendertime tesselation. its not just memory, but network bandwidth etc. stuff will take just as long, if not longer to make. you can simply bring it in at a higher detail level if needed.

    and yes, game engines will be used more and more in tv and film, starting in BG elements. once lighting gets accurate enough, detail high enough etc, support for things like cryptomatte etc...then you'll see it adopted further
     
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