What retro activity did you get up to today?

Discussion in 'Retro & Arcade' started by adz, Jan 28, 2014.

  1. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    But that's actual extra data, not interpolated bullshit. When it comes to watching TV shows or film, I'd rather see what the creatives who designed the content wanted me to see, and not information made up by a processor in the middle. If the creative made the content at 48FPS, that's fine, I'll watch that. I don't want to see something a creative made at 24FPS with some sort of interpolation between frames.

    But they don't advertise that. There's no blurb in the glossy brochure that says "hey look, 100% extra interpolated frames!". I doubt the average consumer would even have the foggiest what that was, let alone notice it (seeing as most consumers can barely distinguish SD content from HD content sitting back on their lounges watching weekend sports).

    LCD and OLED haven't had any real issues with frame persistence for a long time now. Most in the retro forums are old enough to remember early LCD laptops with screens that were so bad, moving your mouse or icons around would result in 3-5 frames of image ghosting.

    The larger issue is delay getting the picture from a device producing the picture to the display itself. The LCD backlight and pixel driving is pretty easy to get things switching on and off within 1/60th of a second. I mean, we've got 144FPS monitors now that are better than that by over 100%. So as far as retro gamers playing old consoles, the problem is not the panel, but rather the unnecessary processing that happens between the picture input and the panel.

    Bob from RetroRGB did an interview with the head tech from ZisWorks who has invented an in-place LCD driver for certain LCD panels. It's a long and boring interview, but the gist is that they can get the delay from signal input to pixel moving down to single-digit milliseconds with ease on their boards, which tells you that the big companies are not concentrating on speed as an important factor, but rather a host of image processing stuff. And given that they can turn it on, I still don't understand why more TVs don't ship with a "game mode" that can turn all that crap off for a given input in a single menu option.

     
  2. Grant

    Grant Member

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    I've definitely seen it advertised, it reminded me of the MHz wars of the early 2000s :lol:

    I try to avoid advertising though so they may have given up on it these days.

    Wrong type of persistence, I'm talking about the backlight being on for the entire frame causing motion blur when your eye tracks a moving object across the screen: https://www.blurbusters.com/motion-tests/pursuit-camera-paper/

    CRTs don't have this because their real photon persistence is low, and it's one of the benefits CRTs have over common LCDs
     
  3. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I'd love to see an example of it advertised. I've not seen it myself.

    Again, I don't think it's an issue for retro gamers. We generally need 50 or 60 FPS (depending on PAL or NTSC content). Given that LCDs are good enough today for double that (whether the LCD layer or the backlight layer), I don't think it's much of a problem for us (certainly not one I've noticed in a long time, and I'm pretty fussy).

    PC gamers are another story, especially folks pushing for 144 FPS and up. That "blurbusters" domain appears to be looking even at 240 FPS and higher, at which point it could definitely be an issue for those folks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  4. Grant

    Grant Member

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    Motion blur when your eyes are tracking a moving object is worse on lower FPSes with 100% persistence, not better. It's not about the LCD subpixels changing state in time, it's about them being visible in a fixed location for 100% of the 0.02s that the frame is displayed for, and thus smearing across your retina as your eye moves naturally to track the "moving" object.

    There's a good writeup of the effect on the context of VR here: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/why-virtual-isnt-real-to-your-brain-judder/

    But in VR it's made worse by the VOR type of movement which isn't applicable to stationary displays.

    Valve's research into VR was a big driver for low persistence displays (backlight strobing), but it's now a valuable feature in fixed gaming displays.

    I don't have a monitor that can handle it though, which is why I was curious if anyone's used the feature with an emulator. Some emulators offer 50% persistence in software when your refresh rate is double the game's rate (by blacking out every other frame), but the one time I tried that it was all out of sync and stuck on every black frame or every game frame for long periods of time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  5. Grant

    Grant Member

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  6. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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  7. oculi

    oculi Member

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    I'm doing a fair bit of gaming on a CRT at the moment, not getting as much eyestrain as I remember in the old days, but that was 2-3 hours at a stretch most days usually. Haven't hooked the gamecube up to an LCD TV yet but Eternal Darkness doesn't really need fast reactions so dunno if the lag would be much of a problem.

    A friend has a (samsung) TV that seem always seems to have "smooth motion" turned on, looks horrible. I went to turn it off (as I have done before because I'm that kind of nice guy) and it wasn't even on the highest setting, shudder to think what that would look like. I keep wondering if there is something wrong with their brains, to each their own i guess.
     
  8. cdtoaster

    cdtoaster Member

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    we once got blazed and put it on max for the lols, was so weird. 10/10 would recommend
     
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  9. JidaiGeki

    JidaiGeki Member

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    Well, maybe those who are into Mexican Soap Operas did ask for it ;) I remember the first time noticing it was watching 'Clear and Present Danger', whipped out the iPhone, looked for 'why does a movie look like a soap opera' and turned that shit off. Guess some people are scared of their TV's settings menus :confused:
     
  10. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    I've got a Samsung 55" 1080p from a couple of years ago which has MotionPlus. I'll be honest, I tweaked the "clear" setting for playing GTA5 all the way through the story multiple times on the Xbox 360. I had the play disc installed to a USB3 flash drive as well to get every frame I could out of it.
     
  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    My gut feel is that folks who like that sort of "entertainment" aren't the most technical.

    I know a lot of folks who, still in 2018, can't tell the difference between SD and HD, let alone 4K, let alone all of those "enhancements" TVs offer. It seems to be that the "average joe" has a lot of stuff designed for them put into TVs, despite the fact that they don't notice, and despite the fact that it ruins the TV for technical people who want to be in control of their device's output.
     
  12. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I don't think it's a preference at all. It's pure ignorance and default settings.

    Again, I wonder why companies ever made it a default in the first place. I can only assume one manufacturer did it, and everyone blindly followed because they mistook one shitty decision for "an industry standard". Proof yet again that popular/standard things don't have to be a good decision, merely the first to market. (A bit like wintel for PCs, which is a really shitty combination of hardware and software, but its a "standard" now, so we all just put up with the shittiness).
     
  13. oculi

    oculi Member

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    yeah if it defaults to that when they power cycle it it explains it I guess. I did wonder if anyone actually likes it, extensive youtube research suggests it was done to combat the inherent lag LCD TVs have (smooth motion looks much worse though) and I found at least one video of "hey guys check out this amazing feature" with a side by side comparison of normal and smooth motion, and all the comments were saying "that looks shit, your an idiot"

    My theory is that while the human eye/brain has an effective sample rate much higher than 24 FPS it doesn't matter, whether you see the mush between real frames or the fake smooth motion it is worse than the "low" frame rate. I recall the hobbit movies got plenty of criticism despite actually being 48FPS (or whatever) native, but they are too bad as movies to watch to check out the effect.

    At least you can turn it off I guess.

    I was wondering what the interpolated frames look like, this video shows two examples pretty well



    I plugged the gamecube into the 60" samsung LED (backlit) TV and the picture was pretty horrible, didn't notice lag after I took it off "movie" mode but even static images were mushy and bad. Back to CRT it is.
     
  14. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    One of these days I'm going to write a sticky about displays for retro gamers.

    Bookmarking for that day:
    http://15khz.wikidot.com/
     
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  15. cdtoaster

    cdtoaster Member

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    you should make a sticky with all that info about using CF & SD cards as bootable IDE drives
     
  16. badmofo

    badmofo Member

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    It was an epic battle (no pun intended) but I have the full Jill trilogy all patched up. NewRisingSun had put some checks in to ensure the user wasn't patching a dodgy version of the game, but where to get a non-dodgy version I ask you? You can't seem to buy it anywhere.
     
  17. DonutKing

    DonutKing Member

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    Yeah its a bit sad that Epic doesn't make their back catalogue available. Evidently the version I have is legit as I don't have any issue with it. I've had it for yonks so no idea where it cam from.
     
  18. badmofo

    badmofo Member

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    Yep there are a couple of versions available on floppy in the U.S but I'd be looking at 100+ bucks. I'm not convinced that my copy of episode 2 is 100% - the demo doesn't run and the sound FX seem to be missing at times. Generally speaking the sounds that do play are awful but looking at youtube, they seem to be right, just a big step backwards from episode 1 which has odd but quite workable FX. I'm using a PAS16 (i.e. thunderboard) so don't expect any issues with compatibility.

    Fun game!
     
  19. DonutKing

    DonutKing Member

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    Yes they changed the FX in each episode. I kinda like it, gives the game a bit of flavour.
     
  20. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

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    Made a monitor stand for my 1084S. It's difficult to see in that image, but I made it angle up slightly.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018

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