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What retro activity did you get up to today?

Discussion in 'Retro & Arcade' started by adz, Jan 28, 2014.

  1. mAJORD

    mAJORD Member

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    It's OK , I follow it reasonably closely, and I still get shocked at what people are bidding on old relics that are literally over the hump sliding towards the retro sub forum in age. (


    Logically, you're right, but PC gaming has been written off so many times in the last 15+ years, and PC sales have declining for so long (historically at rates that suggest it should be negative by now) I don't even want to try and predict where it's going.

    I still remember the Original Xbox - ~2002, the buzz on forums was how it was signalling the end of PC gaming for a whole bunch of logical reasons. With only a few defending the situation. Based on that I thought it probably was going to go that way.

    A few years ago I made similar comments to you about the GPU industry - It was all a big push to HPC , Nvidia's event keynotes were all AI, AI, AI AI, HPC, Datactr, and 5mins of client/gaming at the end .Seeing that I was pretty convinced then also it was a downward spiral. Whilst it still is going that way, The two latest client Releases from AMD/Nvidia suggests, maybe not so fast, even if the pricing is bullshit, both were quite unexpected.

    So I guess with The upcoming next gen console releases, rather than Kill PC gaming, as predicted time and time again, might give it the huge pricing RESET it needs and kick it in the pants again. We will see. And hopefully have a similar conversation again, in another decade
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
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  2. bYrd

    bYrd Member

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    Haha I just picked up a brand new 590 8GB card for my junker Mac Pro, first ATI GPU I think I've ever purchased new. Yes it does the job and was the best card I could grab I believe that wouldn't tax the PSU without that horrible mod I've seen around using vampire clips.

    On retro but not really, I installed the dosdude1 patch to update all my horrible 2009 (this one has rust and a dead sound board) and 2010 Mac Minis used on two TVs to Mac OS X Catalina. It's amazing, with patches to everything and full GPU acceleration. Both have SSDs and are no doubt slower, but thoroughly recommended to keep them up to date!
     
  3. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I'm certainly not trying to incite a "PC vs Console" war. Speaking only for myself, I never saw one as "killing off" the other. I think both in the market is a good thing, as more people gaming on a wider range of platforms is good (I'm a die-hard platform diversity kind of guy).

    What I was more referring to above was overall PC sales slumps. PC gaming is a fraction of the PC market, and PC gamers have had the advantage of economies of scale for a long time. The problem now being that PC sales are declining more because of home users, businesses, workers and the like migrating to either more mobile solutions, cloud, or just simply not needing crazy high powered rigs to do basic office work. 15 years ago there was a desktop PC in every house. Today, I see so many families without one, as everyone migrates to tablets and maybe a laptop if work doesn't supply one already.

    What console sales do, I don't think really has an impact on PC gaming. The big risk to PC gaming, at least in my opinion, is what business do. If billions of business PC sales dry up, economies of scale get worse, and gamer PC prices skyrocket. If it makes more economic sense for Nvidia and co to make high powered, high markup GPUs tailored for cloud compute requirements (AI/ML is exploding), then making stripped down lower end GPUs for gamers is less appealing.

    Perhaps consoles might even help here? If modern consoles are mostly "PC in a box", then perhaps that can aid a little in the PC gamer market? But again, that could also be the same problem in reverse - cloud is the profit centre for the very high end, consoles for the very low end, and PC gamers in the middle looking for a cost effective GPU miss out.

    I dunno - it's all crystal ball gazing and bullshit on my behalf here of course. I don't know the future. But I can't help but think the PC, as we here all knew it, is beginning a slow death. Mainframe died, specialised and diverse microcomputers died. Generic x86 saw a great run, but I can't help but wonder if it will go back to how it was at the beginning of the curve where it was niche users only, and that's what we'll see again at the end of the curve. Kinda sad if that's the case.
     
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  4. Vanne

    Vanne Member

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    Very true I think. But I think we're already taking the first steps there.. , if you look at the last gen and the next gen consoles, ie Sony and M$, both Thier flagship boxes would run rings performance wise around most peecees anyways. (At the time of release) The "gamers" consoles /are/ pretty much high powered PC's clothed in a small form factor. I think somewhere along the line the Xbox and PS marketing teams will catch onto that, and you'll be able to install win10 (or a gamers version of win 10, or whatever M$'s next OS will be called) on said console. PS2 already tried that , but the world just wasn't ready for it yet. I think things might have changed by now.

    Interesting and exiting future for sure. I do realise that the GPU market would face a considerable down turn, but that's on the cards already. Look at us now, we only have 2 options to choose from GPU wise. Amd and NVIDIA..

    I believe we're already well down that path of having possibly only one high powered device in the home, and I think it will be used for everything, not even situated near the tv or in the living room even.

    Anyways gotta love speculation. :)

    And gotta love the illusion of choice. Lol either camp you choose, you'll still be doing the same thing. (That's a bit deep for 6:11 in the morning lol)
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
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  5. mAJORD

    mAJORD Member

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    PC sales (laptop/ desktop combined) have been falling, but as I alluded to earlier, not at a great rate anymore. In fact they increased YoY from 18-19.. Tablet sales - another device meant to kill the PC however continued to decline. Probably because they're pointless if you have a decent sized smartphone.

    Tablets and Smartphones have provided an alternative means of doing things that previously were a PC domain ONLY. This has undoubtedly caused the decline in PC sales numbers, but I don't think it means the market share has to keep swinging in favour of these devices for ever. Lets face it, Smartphone/Tablet is undoubtedly better at some use cases than a PC, yet useless in others. At one point it looked like A ndroid and iOS were going to continue evolving into something that address its limitations and would easily replace the PC, and be the jack of all trades, dock your phone into a kb and go.. but IMO have stagnated badly, and remain a one trick pony.

    Contrary to what you've been noticing, I honestly don't know any households that don't still have either a desktop , notebook, or both. Trying to do everything exclusively on an android or ios device would be like torture to me.. well downright impossible actually, and I feel like we're at a point of equilibrium between the two, or at least damn close, unless mobile devices become more versatile. Those 100% couch surfing netflix, facebook insta swipers who can ditch the PC have, and those who do more than just that, haven't, and we're just seeing the effects less frequency upgrades

    As for Notebook vs Desktop, That's a different story. Desktop continues to bleed to Notebooks, and I don't see that changing but because all the core hardware is fundamentally the same , whether they sell , say 20, 30% more GPUs and CPUs to laptop OEMs than desktop OEMs (which are typically the same anyway) or boxed retail parts, I don't see it affecting the Economies of scale of the later that drastically to be honest. Same for the Server/ HPC datacenter market for that matter. A lot of identical hardware across all these markets. It's just a packaging and marketing game between them.

    Anyway, In regards to the enthusiast PC market, It's always been small compared to consoles, but it's enthusiastic (ho ho) still. As much as I don't like them personally, the mind boggling number of steadily increasing subscribers to tech channels on Youtube aimed squarely at this market - (linus has 10 million alone), contracts the idea that it will keep shrinking.
     
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  6. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I've lost count of the number of friends I have who come to my house to print, and literally own nothing but a phone.

    They're very much in the "non-nerd" demographic. Anyone remotely technical still has a desktop or laptop kicking around. People who sling spreadsheets for a living tend to as well. Go to a household where everyone's a tradie or otherwise non-office-job type industry, and the humble desktop/laptop is nowhere to be seen.
     
  7. Jazz

    Jazz Member

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    Retro activity? Today I went to work. At my office. With other people. Pants were mandatory.
     
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  8. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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  9. Reaper

    Reaper Member

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    10 years on and Elvis yet again trots out the decline of pc's, specifically what has always been a niche market, the enthusiast which in its own is very pc healthy. Yet again phones and consoles being the argument, the Huawei one is a new one, of course a state spy tech agency is going into infrastructure, no secrets in the general population to steal. Phones are now nothing but about cameras with hard cases for babies to teeth on. Tablets are toys for toddlers. See ya in another 10 from my desktop. We all had hope for what the instruments of the pc death could have been, (phones, etc), but it's been shaped by the non tech markets into the spy garbage they are today.
     
  10. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I feel you're missing the actual point here.

    Firstly, PC sales *are* on the decline. Objectively. The worldwide sales figures all agree. (1)

    Secondly, my point was not so much the worldwide decline itself, but the fact that the economies of scale are no longer in favour of gamers who were riding that gravy train in parallel with the larger market.

    Like it or not, PC gaming will become a more expensive hobby as the mass market moves towards other devices. Whether or not you and I think "tablets are toys for toddlers" (and for the record, I agree with you there) doesn't matter. The fact is as the mass market picks up said toys and drops the idea of "a PC in every home", you and I and all of OCAU who do want to buy PC parts are going to pay more per unit as the economy of scale drifts away.

    The point on Huawei was not designed to set off the tin foil hat brigade. Only to point out that new hardware vendors entering the market aren't coming in at the personal computer level like they used to. They're going straight for mobile and cloud, and avoiding the desktop all together. Huawei are merely one example of many doing the same (I work with a lot of AI/ML/GPU/ARM/FPGA stuff at the moment, and none of it is going in PCs or even mid range business servers - it all goes in to the cloud, and the target user market are all phones).

    So, bluntly, succinctly: will PC sales vanish overnight? No. Will economies of scale get worse in a slowly shrinking market? Yes. Remember how expensive PCs were in the late 90s? (My Pentium 200 cost me a cool $3K in 1997 dollars). Get ready to feel that sting again.

    The boom of the automobile didn't stop anyone being able to buy horseshoes. But damned, did getting a blacksmith to make horseshoes become really expensive.

    (1) Literal first hit off Google
    12578.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
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  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Right, change of pace, because crystal ball gazing is boring.

    This very accurate comment was made earlier:
    So now it's time for a bit of fun. The official "design cheap crap off AliExpress that will play old games" mini competition. The rules are: there are no rules, and nobody cares. Filed under my RAEOTM for this week.

    Here's my take:

    * $35 socket 755 mobo - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/400...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_
    * $6 for a 1GB stick of DDR2 -https://www.aliexpress.com/item/400...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_
    * $13 for a core2duo (cheaper CPUs about but the postage was bumped to make them about the same) -
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/400...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_
    * $7 for a heatsink - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/400...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_
    * $38 for a GPU -https://www.aliexpress.com/item/400...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

    Grand total $99 (need case/PSU/hard disk on top).

    What do we reckon.... Win2K maybe early WinXP era capable gaming rig? Would play emulators faster than any mini console at about the same price.

    What can the eBay experts find to best that?
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
  12. Vanne

    Vanne Member

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    Fuck AliExpress...

    Sorry man, I won't buy anymore shit from China if I can help it to be honest. If your looking for socket 7 bits, I am sure the sum of us can pile some good bits together to send to you, free of charge ofcourse.

    Frikkin Virgin goes bust today, mostly because of the Chinese made covid shit, and will probably be bought by the Chinese at a bargain basement broke price, after causing them to fall over (though that's been on the cards for a while now) .. that to me is just freaking rediculous. I'd say ban any imports from China and ban any exports there too. Economically kill half the planet and then try to buy the pieces at a stupid low price because everyone is broke.. fuck that!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
  13. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    You know where 95% of our electronics is made, right?

    Insta-death for every Western industry you know and love.

    Until manufacturing is 100% automated, we're entirely reliant on China. PC goods or otherwise.

    And I'm 100% for automation. I work on it every day. But there's a hell of a lot of people working to stop that progress too, because they're too afraid of a world without rote jobs as "adult daycare" to break their supply chain dependence on China. That's your real enemy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
  14. grommet80

    grommet80 Member

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    So I take it you are going for corruption over gross negligence?

    I finally got a Wii U at a reasonable price and am currently setting it up for retro based activities. Fun times. Also easier then I thought.
     
  15. MUTMAN

    MUTMAN Member

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    i setup a new sd card for my MiSTer and wanted to do a quick test of some arcade cores just to make sure everything was working a-ok before i dragged the MiSTer back to the lounge room (hence the LCD, so dont hate me
    i jumped a fireball (firefox?) right when it was over the rivet, and it got stuck there and couldnt move. just wobbling back and forward.
    I've played this game countless times and never seen it before :O

    dk1 (2).jpg dk1 (3).jpg dk1 (1).jpg
     
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  16. Vanne

    Vanne Member

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    Not really sure what happened there, but you can't kill that many people with fuck all consequence, and then try profit from it. It's a crazy world..

    Love the Wii.. it's my go-to kids play video games with me box.. well that's not true anymore.. the arcade 1up is that now. So many great games on Wii.. enjoy.
     
  17. FIREWIRE1394

    FIREWIRE1394 Member

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    I don't typically like to do work logs. Then I feel compelled to constantly update it, instead of just bumming about.
    the one time I DID A worklog, it was a disaster, parts got lost in the mail, then I had to stay at home without being able to get new parts, so I took on other projects and now my worklog (putting my daily in an old antec) is stalled because I found other stuff to do!

    I will probably ditch it (or fix the caps eventually), I have a couple of nice <10 year old antecs here that will be good enough. but I'll see if it works in worse hardware anyway.
    took the FDD and ODD out
    Felt compelled to pull the the floppy apart for a full clean because I have tonnes of diskettes, and they're entirely useless these days.

    Good old ALPS ELECTRIC CO:
    1.JPG

    2.JPG


    3.JPG

    There's a spot on the front that looked like a stain (left of the access light) I took the photo and it was just my dmap finger that left it, so that's annoying, but I ain't got time for a new picture!

    4.JPG


    We have a BENQ DW1625 burner, and it's always nice when the friends that come in salvage PC's are already dead:
    5.JPG

    Unfortunately, this PC has had a lot of little spiders still living in it, so I've been squashing for days.
    6.JPG
    with all the components mostly done. (Just some cables and and back IO extensions to go) next is the case.

    The case will be an undertaking... just look at this fan grill. I don't think there's enough rust remover in the world:
    DSCF0074.JPG
     
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  18. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I've never seen that either. Wonder if it's a MiSTer bug or something in the game?
     
  19. FIREWIRE1394

    FIREWIRE1394 Member

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    Cleaned some fans while watching VHS tapes:
    123.png
    I mixed up the 2 fans on the left in the after photo, but you get the point...

    Will take me a while to do the case though. SO much rust, and so much old stuff to do!
     
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  20. Reaper

    Reaper Member

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    Not at all. I get when the same thing 10 years ago is put forth yet again. Phones, tablets and non tech consumers = pc's dying! Oh noes! It's all the same as it ever was!

    And? There's things to be said about first hits with no analysis of them. That shows a declining return, not a consistent return sliding scale that just proves that a computer in 2010 is still good enough for that 8 years as really, it was. CPU is very much less relevant since then. My asus n61ja I bought in 2010 is very capable today still. As for Huawei, you missed my point, why would you even try to use them as "proof" that no one is entering pc consumer markets and that it's all over? There are already enough in that space. Put that point forward if amd or NVidia stop those markets.

    Plus I see computer shops are still thriving, expanding really. Pretty good mark of a dead market. Remember when you had to travel to the southside to buy stuff? Now I can go as far as just Brendale.

    Ha, no. It's just as easy to set up back in Japan or move to Taiwan again. Don't confuse automation for globalisation which is the enemy. Full automation is a 1000 year pipe dream right now.
     

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