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What the hell is ScSi

Discussion in 'Retro & Arcade' started by shane41, Jul 2, 2016.

  1. shane41

    shane41 Member

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    Haha got your attention with that. Good :p

    Noob moment :sick: I have no idea about setting it up. So please super brains come along & speed me through the process. It's doing my head in with these Nakamichi's NOT recognised.

    I did promise to send Krumm this drive & so :o it has taken so long to getting around to testing. So do help if you can. Welcome your ideas.

    Board is K7T Master S
    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...KHWxzDjoQ_AUIBygC&dpr=1#imgrc=XrVmiLLrCTaC4M:

    Drives are Nakamichi MJ-5.16
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2nw8J5sC0Y

    So far cable connected to x2 drives. Only XP installed & not detect.
    Would try 98 but the floppy disc for this has been bloody buried somewhere here & I cannot find it.
     
  2. JidaiGeki

    JidaiGeki Member

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    Hey m8!

    Maybe start with one drive on the cable ;) also, do the drives show up as being detected by the SCSI controller when you power up?

    Third thing to check - make sure the SCSI controller is installed and shows up in Device Manager.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    shane41

    shane41 Member

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    No idea atm Richard. That box I had hooked up a week ago.
    Will set it up. Show you the connections & settings.
    Normal manual with the board, only basic bios settings < that scsi part manual is left out of sale item > Could well be installing drivers from floppy too.

    Very much I want to be steered how to run it correctly :thumbup:
    That Scsi bios " brief look " was rather daunting first time
     
  4. philscomputerlab

    philscomputerlab Member

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    Shane, my advice is not to bother with SCSI :)
     
  5. pfrcom

    pfrcom Member

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    Do you have last Nakamichi on the cable with Termination set (assuming they have in-built termination)

    Look for a jumper saying Term, or something similar

    Also, is each Nakamichi set with a unique SCSI address ? - I have my ODD SCSI devices set to 6 & 5, being second & third highest priority SCSI addresses (7 being highest priority, used for controller by default)

    Press Ctrl-A when you get the Adaptec prompt during boot-up - if Nakamichis aren't shown, no point in continuing with any Windows setup
     
  6. shredder

    shredder Member

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    What cable are you using? Is it terminated?
     
  7. mkusanagi

    mkusanagi Member

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    It's hard not knowing everything in play (self terminating cables etc etc).

    Start with one drive connected to the furthermost connection on the cable.

    On the rear of the drive you're using the first 3 jumpers on the end are the SCSI ID. Each device needs to have its own unique ID on the chain. Put a jumper on 1 (left most jumper) to give it the ID of 1 remove the other two jumpers if they are installed on the other IDs. On the right most side put a jumper on the 'Termination' pins.

    That should be the most basic setup for the drive itself. Depending on the controller it may need to be detected and configured in the SCSI BIOS which is just after the regular bios boots. But usually it should be automatically detected and will show up in the devices list.

    Is the SCSI controller detected in Windows?
     
  8. OP
    OP
    shane41

    shane41 Member

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    Thanks for the interest guys .........hehe I was not expecting so much help :)
    Alright alright I'll get this thing plugged in & upload pic's :thumbup:
     
  9. JidaiGeki

    JidaiGeki Member

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    Looks like the K7T uses the Adaptec AIC7892 chipset. There are some drivers here - support.advantech.com/support/DownloadSRDetail_New.aspx?SR_ID=1-95YSA&Doc_Source=Download - should work I hope, use the Win2K ones in XP. MSI support is hard to navigate on a phone!

    For my own SCSI cards I went to Adaptec's site and freaked out, they are now known as "Microsemi", will have to archive some drivers in case they drop legacy support!
     
  10. HobartTas

    HobartTas Member

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    Just like to add that the SCSI id for the adapter controller is usually set to 7 (111 in binary) so avoid that setting for devices, all devices have to have a unique setting as they must not clash.

    SCSI devices are daisy chained together so any middle devices do not need termination as they have two connections.

    Devices on the very end need to be terminated. The controller is automatically terminated as it is the start of the chain. The device on the other end of the chain (which is obviously not linked to another device) must be terminated and there are usually only two ways to do this either (1) a jumper setting that sets termination either on or off and this is usually the case if the device only has one SCSI connector or (2) an actual physical terminator device that is plugged in the vacant connector although this is usually pretty rare.

    If a chain is not terminated then usually the whole shebang does not work at all until this is done.
     
  11. OP
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    shane41

    shane41 Member

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    Good discussion guys.........still getting to that bench & clearing shit away.
    Sorry still delayed atm
     
  12. Mickatroid

    Mickatroid Member

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    Amiga users are used to SCSI. Recently SCSI to SD card adapters have become fairly readily available. I have a SCSI HP DAT72, some external SCSI devices etc. Very handy to have a SCSI Zip on old SCSI only hardware, makes going to PC easy with either a PCI SCSI card or a second USB ZIP.

    It is a very good standard and remained (remains?) common in enterprise standard gear for a very long time after home computers abandoned it.
     
  13. DonutKing

    DonutKing Member

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    Amiga users like SCSI because, compared to the IDE or XTA controllers of the time, SCSI supports DMA transfers. This greatly reduces CPU load for disk operations, and can make the whole computer feel much snappier. Of course IDE also had lower bus bandwidth than SCSI but I really think that DMA makes the most difference.

    However, ATA drives/controllers (from ATA-33 and up) support DMA; on a Socket A board you will probably have ATA-66 or better. I'd argue that this basically negates the main advantage of SCSI over IDE.
    On an early Pentium, 486 or earlier, with only PIO IDE modes, SCSI will make a bigger performance impact. On a UDMA controller like that on the OP's board, a cheap IDE SSD will be faster and easier than spinning rust SCSI drives.

    Yes SCSI drives from this time often have more cache and higher spindle speeds as they were more aimed at servers rather than consumers. They also cost more and were often seriously loud, and were more complex to configure.

    Not to dissuade anyone from playing with it; part of the fun of this hobby is doing shit 'because you can'. :thumbup: Maybe good project for shane... bench SCSI vs IDE spindle vs IDE SSD and see which is faster/less CPU intensive?
     
  14. OP
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    shane41

    shane41 Member

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    OK noob is back :tongue:

    x2 of the floppy could be useful. But I see no mention of the Nakamichi even working with other than win98. Question asked on the net but can see no result.

    It's just I'm more comfortable to run software in XP. That 98 will have me searching for older stuff that can run the drives & select as a jukebox for music.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Await to see what you think about the drive jumpers. Then I can plug in that set & get bios pic on the scsi stuff
     
  15. mkusanagi

    mkusanagi Member

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    Looks like your drive at the end of the chain does not have termination enabled, the jumper is on parity, which is fine, but you need termination too.
     
  16. OP
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    shane41

    shane41 Member

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    OK so like a master / slave idea.

    Just add a jumper to that one. So the other must have none.
    I don't get what parity is.

    Is it OK to number them scsi 1 & 2? End of cable is 1 like master.
    That physical ID on drive, is that what I also set in the scsi bios to match them?
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
  17. mkusanagi

    mkusanagi Member

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    From: http://storage.microsemi.com/en-us/.../2930/aha-2930cu/use_prod/scsi_user_guide.htm

    Yes its fine to have them as 1 & 2 though as you're trying to see them at the least i'd probably stick to using one drive first.

    The SCSI BIOS should see them without any intervention on your part. You can have the drive IDs in any order you want on the chain, so long as the last drive on the chain is terminated, the drive automatically terminates or a terminator is attached to the end of the chain.

    **feel free to correct me if i'm wrong! What I know is from my experience restoring Apple machines/Early IBM PITA servers**
     
  18. OP
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    shane41

    shane41 Member

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    OK thankyou. Give me half an hour. Will try as you suggest & x1 drive.

    edit. Them floppy discs, just to boot from Scsi right?
    Pressing the f6 keystroke & load boot drivers. That way I remember doing raid on 462

    Not needed otherwise on normal straight forward install. Just do the driver cd.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
  19. Mickatroid

    Mickatroid Member

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    Nice post DK, some stuff in there that is news to me :)

    The pictures help stuff come back to me, the very first CD burners of note were all SCSI as I recall.

    I recently came across a vintage computing gem that converts from mSATA (those SSDs on a card you need for a NUC) to PATA, as in ribbon cable IDE, inside a 2.5" form factor box. :shock:
     
  20. OP
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    shane41

    shane41 Member

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    Hehe stopped by a lowly jumper setting. Well I never..........

    OK done the trick. :thumbup: OS shows x5 physical drives, listened to the CD sound only via scsi cable. Still good.

    Leading to another question.

    My favorite sound card a 2zs. Has a Aux & CD in. So that's 10 physical drives that can do a analogue cable on those inputs.

    Out of control. > I planned a x50 disc changer, long time ago :Pirate: < not read this.

    So what if I run out of drive letters? Is there a better option for sound to take these many inputs?
     

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