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What would you prioritise if you survived a super-virus that wiped out 99% of us?

Discussion in 'Science' started by Crewcut, Jun 30, 2020.

  1. Crewcut

    Crewcut New Member

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    With the Coronavirus Pandemic, people have been buying various pandemic novels like Emily St John-Mandel's "Station 11". In this novel, a super-virus wipes out 99% of the human race. That's like the recent reboot of Planet of the Apes! Only 1 in 100 survive.
    https://www.vulture.com/2020/03/glass-house-station-eleven-emily-st-john-mandel.html

    A: What would be your political and population strategies? (We'll discuss technical challenges after.)

    1. Law and order

    If a disaster wipes out the absolute majority of your population the survivors need to maintain law and order. Any surviving cops or authority figures need to get in charge and encourage belief in the system - belief in concepts like States and Nations for the benefit of all. The British started their colonisation of aboriginal lands with the first fleet and believed in the colony of New South Wales with just 1480 people - most of them convicts. How much more motivated would the survivors of an apocalyptic super-plague be? It's about supporting basic legal structures for the safety of all and the outlawing of warlord tyrants.

    To be honest, I’m not even sure the fall of a National government is as inevitable as it appears in most post-apocalyptic stories. Most national governments have brainstorming groups (like America’s DARPA) and security agencies planning survival of their own government and quick recovery plans for the nation for all manner of horrible crises. But assuming the National government fell, eventually local survivors would form villages with local Mayors, and these would look to trade and form regional security pacts, gradually building up to a State – and I imagine this more or less occurring across the country ASAP as the search for survivors and resources grew.

    In the western world we know the rule of law is a fragile thing. We know the benefits of democracy and checks and balances in government. As cynical as the modern world is about our politicians, in a real crisis we know we need law and order and an authority to call on to stop the descent into anarchy and warlords and mob violence. Without the distractions of Netflix and busy social lives, there is a lot more time for thinking. Collapses are long, boring affairs, with short bursts of extreme terror interspersed with months of boredom and general nagging anxiety. People will want to feel safe. They’ll want a local leader, an authority figure to report infractions to and decide matters. I imagine them quickly appointing a mayor. It’s one of the first steps on the road to recovery.

    And if it descends into warlords and tyranny, – even warlords hate total anarchy! Even if some crazy tyrant takes over somewhere, not all hope is lost. Even they want some sort of order. Think of warlords in Afghanistan, or Mexican drug cartels forming alliances. They want hot food and cold beer, and a means to achieve their ends. They can organise enormous lines of supply and have their chains of command, all the way down to administration and accounting divisions. Technical progress would be prioritised – even if the political progress came through painful revolutions later on.

    2. Consolidate and concentrate your population into a few core towns

    Once law and order was established, the new government would take stock. The population has absolutely collapsed from 7.5 million people down to only 75,000. The loss of trained professionals is profound. How many doctors and nurses have survived - or were most wiped out in the pandemic? How many electricians and plumbers have made it? How many power station engineers? What does all of this mean? The government would need to assess all this.

    Now we get down to it. Many post-apocalyptic books and movies, like David Brin's "The Postman" (interesting book, apparently a terrible movie!) all focus on small villages. Indeed, "The Postman" moves from village to village looking for somewhere that has power tools operational and isn't strictly Medieval in technology. Why are they stuck so far down the technological ladder? Because the post-disaster village flattens out our ability to specialise. When the population is down to the village level, many people become general labourers. They're all trying to grow the food, maintain the homes, and weave stuff. When everyone has to master the basics, no one can specialise into the more technical trades.

    3. Population means specialisation.

    The key to getting technical guilds of experts up and running is a decent population. Just as with computers, towns have a kind of "Moore's law" in which the more people you have living close together, the more you can get done. The basic rule of thumb? Every time you double a city's population you get an extra 30% for free. EG: 5,000 people in one town and 5,000 people in another separate town produce the GDP of 10,000 people. But if they were all together in the one town of 10,000 people, they get the productivity of 13,000 people. That's the work of an extra 3000 people 'for free'. You don't have to feed and clothe and house them. They're not real people. It's just the efficiency gains of living together in shared infrastructure.
    http://news.mit.edu/2013/why-innovation-thrives-in-cities-0604

    4. So you can't get sentimental and try and save everything.

    Now imagine how important this would be in a post-disaster world where your population has crashed from 7.5 million down to 75 thousand! The future government would have to pick winning towns and ask people to move there. There might be a few towns out in the agricultural areas and a winning township picked in Sydney to salvage all those shopping centres and abandoned suburban homes. Indeed, just as we saw in the recent reboot of the Planet of the Apes trilogy, we might see people moving into semi fortified shopping centres to maintain walkability and mutual security. It depends how the government are going dealing with security issues and outlaws. You might appoint a few curators and guards for art galleries and museums - or even move the contents to be guarded in your new towns. But sentiment can't get in the way. A small townships within Sydney would win, and the rest would be salvaged. Solar panels and tech and tools and clothes would all be scavenged and stored and hopefully if stored right, no one would need to make new clothes for generations to come.


    B: So now the next question: how long for technological civilisation to recover after an all out nuclear war or high mortality pandemic? What would be your technical strategies?

    5. Energy rationing, agriculture, and cycling culture.

    Given that I am optimistic that *some* form of governance would develop within a year of the disaster – how long to industrialise again? The first step would be prioritising fuel for agriculture. Petroleum has a one or two year shelf life at most. Fuel would be the new gold, enabling some initial agricultural output. While scavenging all the fuel you could find and transport, the farming town/s at Orange or Griffith would get their tinkerers to develop wood gas engines for harvesters and tractors. It's a primitive system but in a world of only 75,000 NSW citizens, trees would start to grow back and could be harvested for agricultural fuel. Most personal transport would go back to cycling and horse drawn carriages – for a while. Cycling and rickshaw culture would make a huge comeback. Bikes with trailers can move modest loads by good old fashioned pedal power, enabling some level of scavenging to begin.

    6. Technical guilds.

    This is where the book World War Z has some interesting insights. (I hate zombies as a concept, but it’s a rich apocalypse genre). The book is quite different to the movie and follows the decade after the initial Zombie outbreak. The survivors fortify the Rocky Mountains, get organised, and simplify the economy so that former CEO’s and Hollywood celebrities have less status than a good plumber. In a similar way I imagine we would see various guilds quickly formed. There would be farming, scavenging, and technical guilds. At first, any decent carpenter or plumber or electrician would be treated like celebrities. They would be sent to retrieve solar panels and batteries, and make local small scale wind turbines and tools and gear for their workshops. Even rural areas would have heaps of useless cars scattered around that could be scrapped for various metals for years to come, let alone the bounty waiting for them in the abandoned cities.

    Eventually plans for the future would emerge. Scavenging would look to not just tools and resources, but the manuals that teach future generations how to make stuff work. With limited time for education and a requirement for as much labour as possible, young people would be educated maybe up to middle high school and then apprenticed to guilds to learn on the job. In some ways their next ‘industrial revolution’ would be much faster than the first industrial revolution, as we already know the laws of physics and chemistry and biology that make the modern world possible. The techs from the village would soon form scavenging parties that would collect and centralise the most important power systems to keep the power tools running.

    7. Luxuries and toys.

    There are primitive solutions for batteries and even refrigeration, so that life in a post-apocalyptic town could soon learn how to build from scratch some of the comforts of the modern world. While there might be a generation or so of solar panels and batteries, as these start to wear down other more primitive locally made technologies can take over. Bit by bit society would build up again, in a more walkable, human based town plan. Energy would be more valuable and prioritised for the most important survival and salvaging efforts. Small scale wind turbines can be built.

    Finally, some regions will eventually rebuild hydro dams. The bottom line? I think we’d be more or less back to close to today’s technological capability, if not population and industrial output, within a generation or two. What do you think?

    For more detail, see Isaac Arthur:

    What do you think?
     
  2. Nethiuz

    Nethiuz Member

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    Against all of this. But interesting.
    There will be no law and order at all..
    As for concentration of population I'd stay the fuck right away from that, go bush and self sustain myself.

    Highly doubt within a century we would be back to where we left off, if ever. Many technological processes are built off one another over time and it would all be lost. Also most people are stupid, almost 99% of everything that exists is because of a handful of very smart people.

    But just my opinion.
     
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  3. whatdoesthisdo

    whatdoesthisdo Member

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    I said it at the start of the coronavirus thread and I'll say it here. I have ABSOLUTELY no interest in a world without fine dinning, internet, electricity, tv, and most importantly my hot tub.
     
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  4. OP
    OP
    Crewcut

    Crewcut New Member

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    Why? Don't people want to get together - at last after the pandemic is over? Everyone left is immune.

    Everyone left is immune.

    Not at all. There are manuals and massive concentrations of metal in our cities and 200 years of scientific enterprise to just 'wake up' again.

    True - but that just means the repairs will be slower - not eliminated. The population will have to grow for that top 4% of smart people (or whatever the figure is) to really innovate back to prosperity - and they'll need an army of minions to follow their commands. That's why the assembly line works as well as it does.
     
  5. OP
    OP
    Crewcut

    Crewcut New Member

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    It's not like I'm longing for the end of civilisation - but I'm just optimistic that we'd have a new one fairly soon.
     
  6. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    I'd prioritise a generator and ample supply of fuel... then I can still power my screen/speakers/PC's to watch my DVD/Bluray collection and stored media etc.

    I might starve, but I can still watch things and play games until I do. :leet:



    JSmith
     
  7. OP
    OP
    Crewcut

    Crewcut New Member

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    What's your day job? Would that come in handy? I wonder how much IT work there would be if we had say the population of 75,000 spread across Penrith, Orange and Griffith on a micro-grid and micro-net? (Penrith is on the river and would be a good place to salvage the rest of Sydney from, also closer to the agricultural zones over the range.) If the original crisis was nukes, then it's going to be tough to find hardware that wasn't fried in the attack. But if we're talking about a super-virus, then there's all that tech to salvage and store for the long term - and a bold new world of Linux Mint & servers to hack together. ;) After all, it has to be FOSS as the big corporations are down and all this is being salvaged and rebuilt from the ground up.
     
  8. Nethiuz

    Nethiuz Member

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    I would like to get away because the people left would be killing each other for food and things, that's how it would go down! Don't care about immune.

    Fuel goes to shit in a year or so, i'd rig up some car alternators on a paddle on flowing water, yeee ha, Solar too!
     
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  9. OP
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    Crewcut

    Crewcut New Member

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    You will be in great demand! :D
     
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  10. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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    Totally... I might start my own breeder reactor too. ;)



    JSmith
     
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  11. OP
    OP
    Crewcut

    Crewcut New Member

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    Ever read "Lucifer's Hammer" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle? A comet fractures and shards hit the earth, and civilisation falls. Then...

    Reverend Henry Armitage manages to take control of a cannibalistic group of petty thieves and the remnants of a former US Army unit, integrating them into his pre-existing band of followers, the New Brotherhood Army. The Reverend's forces begin a rampage through the area, culminating in a series of battles with the inhabitants of the Stronghold. Jellison's force prevails with the help of chemical weapons, saving the Stronghold and also defending a nuclear power plant nearby, thus preserving a supply of electric power that is needed to rebuild civilization.​
     
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  12. Hater

    Hater Member

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    Well, my ancestors came from a small farming village in what is now known as Slovenia, so I guess i'd go back, form a small community and go do what my family did for hundreds of years without electricity, petrol or modern anything. It was livable back then, it is livable now.
     
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  13. whatdoesthisdo

    whatdoesthisdo Member

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    BUT
    upload_2020-7-1_13-27-42.png
     
  14. Hater

    Hater Member

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    Might need some long lost local knowledge but don't really have a choice now do we
     
  15. OP
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    Crewcut

    Crewcut New Member

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    Let's not forget FOSH - Free Open Source Hardware!

    They have plans for putting together the top 50 industrial tools from parts and scrap you can find in hardware stores and backyard workshops and toolsheds. If some survivalist has this info and shares it with surviving towns, they can send out specific scavenging requests and build that machine that enables them to build the next thing that lets them finally get back to zero, building that last lost widget and closing the loop. All the main framework parts are modular so that 13 key frameworks can be quickly swapped out and replugged together like so much lego so a new tool can be built.

    Tractors into bread ovens into laser tables.

    4 minutes

     
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  16. OP
    OP
    Crewcut

    Crewcut New Member

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    OK, here's the most obviously super-difficult technological bottleneck:

    What are the chances a smaller post-virus civilisation could cook up their own backyard computer chips?
    This is way out of my depth, but it doesn't seem impossible to maybe cook up a village scaled chipset from maybe the 1980's?

    https://www.instructables.com/id/Home-Semiconductor-Manufacturing/
    https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-construct-my-own-computer-chips

    So we get hit by a super bug and 99% of us die off. Australia's left with 250,000 people.

    Assuming some kind of National government and recovery scheme works, would that be enough to have a home grown chip industry if we've lost contact with overseas?

    Assumptions: -
    • we only want to cook up the most primitive chips that we could make from scratch.
    • we haven't already established international trade yet.
    • recycled computers from the ruins are starting to finally die, so it's time to make new ones from scratch.
    I'm just asking as a thought experiment - we'd probably be trading with overseas within a few years after the disaster, even if we had to trade by sailing boat because international oil systems were down. With Americas 330 million down to 3.3 million, and China's 1.4 bn to 14 million - I'm guessing they'd have their clean rooms up and running before we needed to think about building our own chips.
     
  17. adamsleath

    adamsleath Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Global_Seed_Vault

    i'd enjoy the view.
    because my goals would be realised. woot!


    easy:
    water.
    shelter. (a good hiding spot)
    food.


    and a babelicious babe.

    there would also be over abundant raw materials for scavengers, for generations probably.
    so unless there was a new kind of imperialist empire building group of nutjobs, we could all live very comfortably - much like today.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  18. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    https://collapseos.org/
    https://sr.ht/~vdupras/collapseos/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/collapseos/

    Last I checked, compiles and works on Z80 CPUs.

     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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  19. OP
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    Crewcut

    Crewcut New Member

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    Wow - they look old.
    So ... in terms of computing manufacture are they actually micro-chips or more in the realm of backyard hacker electronics?
    But man I'm impressed there is a collapse os!
     
  20. whatdoesthisdo

    whatdoesthisdo Member

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    I think you are greatly overestimating the capability of the average Australian. Have you seen reality tv? Have you been outside?

    250,000 Random Australians? Rofl. I think you would be streets ahead if they cook up potato chips. :lol:
     
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