Wifi Mesh - New home build

Discussion in 'Networking, Telephony & Internet' started by ~kraven, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. TRG.dOinK

    TRG.dOinK Member

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    Noted, is there a rule of thumb with the coverage those Ubiquiti AP's cover? Like, how do you plan for that?
    Our house is about ~269m2, whereas yours is much bigger at 334m2, I was only planning on using 1x AP, but now you've got me thinking, and now it makes me question AP vs Mesh, but pretty sure I'd rather 2 AP's than one AP and one mesh unit?

    I agree 100%, cabled connection way better than wireless, but i didn't bother with a hard wire behind the fridge, but do make sure you have a water connection there.

    And yep, good to hear regarding trust no one + private inspector.

    I agree also with Steelzor, I tend to only connect the main items, PC's, HTPC, Android TV devices, Consoles, Fetch TV, basically where I want fast transfer, low pings.

    I tend to try not connect TVs, Fridges, Misc Items, usually the reason is I cbf troubleshooting why my net is farked when something goes wrong.
     
  2. Bradzac

    Bradzac Member

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    Mesh is a band aid fix if you can't retrofit AP's or dont have the knowledge how to. I've been in a house that used mesh, it's usable at best, a pain in the arse at worst. I was there for a couple months, I had all the ubiquiti gear that was ready to go in the new house with me so I set up my own network because it was that bad. Mesh also rebroadcasts a lot of data, meaning any traffic going over your wifi potentially uses bandwidth on every repeater. So someone streaming content at one end of the house will saturate wifi bandwidth for the other end of the house. Throw in a few chatty IoT devices and good luck with that. Just avoid it. Do it right the first time and thank me later.

    You're right, you dont need ethernet behind the fridge, but you will probably want it at your solar inverter, if you're putting one in. I wish we did, because getting the fronius symo to connect to any wifi was an enormous pain in the dick (and a common occurrence, apparently). It took me literally days to figure out what the issue was.

    Here's coverage for a single AP in our downstairs (I removed the one in the office to give you an idea of a single AP). This only takes into account brick wall (red) and gyprock walls (grey). It ignores furniture, internal services like sewer, water etc and our rockwool soundproofing in various places. Downstairs is 24m long, 12.2 wide, approx 230m2 internal inc garage. Before I put in a second AP in the office, reception in the garage and office was poor.
    upload_2019-5-15_18-23-10.png

    It is, actually, but I'm talking about the literal definition of the term, not the more commonly used negative connotation associated with it that you're familiar with.

    Wifi is fine in older or smaller houses. Modern houses are larger, and built with different materials than those decades ago. Density of brick in homes will affect wifi more than timber like a queenslander. Any internal wool insulation like rockwool for soundproofing etc will have a huge effect on signal. Add steel frames, ducted air conditioning if you're running from the second floor to the first, or any other services running internal to the walls etc and wifi struggles. But in your average 20+ year old single story 4 bedder where the biggest challenge is to get through 3 empty drywall walls over 10 meters, it's probably going to be fine (actually, in our old place, we had troubles with that exact scenario and ended up buying a shitload of ethernet-over-power devices to solve it).
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  3. Zee

    Zee Member

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    Remember, my job is automation. As HoldenKicks pointed out, a large chunk of automation is IP based, and if you are on the C4/Crestron/Savant/RTI/whatever train, you need to minimise your call backs - because nothing hurts your profit margin like a service call.

    Now, if I have control of the wifi system specs... I *may* be ok with it, but a lot of stuff that needs integration simply does not have wifi as an option.. Also, you generally have higher bandwidth available with a cabled system. I am not sure if you're familiar with AVB (Audio Video Bridging), but it's a thing, and there is, actually, as it turns out, a fair call for it. Go check out the bit related to wireless.

    If I don't allow for this stuff at install, I am crippling the future upgrade potential for my client, and screwing myself over at the same time. I know you mention audio being one of the lowest streaming requirements - but that assumes you are streaming at the crappy end of the spectrum. Head up the food chain, where quality matters (24bit/192kHz) and you're using about 10mbps, still fairly low down, sure, but with a few other devices streaming 4k you tube or something, and a less than perfect wifi signal, you'll start to struggle. Heck, I had to hard wire the Sonos in my bedroom because it was just on the edge of the Sonos' wifi range, and audio kept dropping out. Now, the hilarious part is, I wires this place about 10 years ago - geez, didn't I wish I had run a couple of Cat 5e's back then? It took me a day to get them there, it was an epic mission, it would have taken 30 minutes during the renovations.

    Now, sure, one may say "blah blah, it's only for the rich folk", to which I say that this sort of tech tends to filter down. In about 2000, a Philips Pronto was a $1000 item, Logitech do that shit now for well below $100 - and have been for many, many, years.

    Wifi can still be flaky, looking at housing density these days, I quick scan with a free app will show the 2g spectrum over crowded in most city areas, and AC is a nice solution, but the range drops off like a lead ballon the second it has to start going through walls, cabinets, furniture - even you, if you are facing the wrong way.

    So, OK, maybe you need an access points in better locations - well, those extra Cat cables turned out to be useful, after all...

    Z...
     
  4. sTeeLzor

    sTeeLzor Member

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    Yeah I live in WA where brick is the norm, not the exception. I can guarantee brick does not block wifi signals dead stop like your map shows. If I can get WiFi in my house through 4-6 single leaf brick walls good enough to stream 1080P video, I suspect you havent actually dealt with it.
    If you have a use case for additional runs, then yeah its worth it. That's my whole point. Its pointless runs to connect devices which dont use it.
     
  5. Bradzac

    Bradzac Member

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    I can guarantee Ubiquiti, the manufacturers of the mapping tool I used, who also made the hardware I used, do know what does and does not block wifi signals for the hardware they manufacture and and have a pretty good idea just by how much. I'd even argue they would know quite a bit better than you think you do, regardless of your anecdotal evidence. I can also guarantee that what they display in that image was pretty damn close to reality (since I tested it), and that if I took the time to explain to you what you were looking at, you would probably agree with it too.
     
  6. darknebula

    darknebula Member

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    Whilst it's true the single and more so double brick will attenuate the wireless signal the Ubiquiti coverage map is far from accurate. It is a very basic approximation of what the signal is doing. I'll dig up the heat maps i generated of my house with Ekahau to give you a more accurate idea.
     
  7. bcann

    bcann Member

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    For me it boils down to experience, having installed many a WAP, as far as how to guestimate how many AP's you will need, again experience.... but it will vary according to wall construction (how thick, what materials), how many walls between the AP and the external wall of a house, orientation of the AP plays a big part (Are you hanging it from a ceiling or merely just "laying" it on a book shelf or mounting it vertically etc, how much metal maybe around (have seen idiots mount AP's right next to inch thick I-Beams and wonder why they get zero signal in a factory environment). At least until all the gear is powered on and the home and walls have been sealed, its more of a best guess scenario until you pull out/use even a basic signal meter app on your phone and do a wander around. Yes i know someone is screaming right now at the forum, but but but its not as good as a proper real signal meter, and yes your right, but not many of us have access to a several $K toy to use at home, so we use what we can.

    And yes there is a water tap behind the fridge, and i figured for a nw point behind the fridge because one day they will have self ordering fridges/fridges that you can webcam on the inside or some kind of thing, so it won't cost much when the walls aren't up to get it pre-wired. As far as electrical devices, they will all live on their own VLAN (be it wired or wireless) and be firewalled from other devices on my primary network computer network, and if it ever becomes a bandwidth drain, i can use the firewall to bandwidth limit them/filter them/whatever (Watchguard firewall). The kids already have their own VLAN (Vlan 666) which is heavily filtered and us adults already have our own unfiltered network which is valnned off from other things.

    and there will also be a nw point for the Inverter
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  8. gdjacobs

    gdjacobs Member

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    If you're spending $120 per port, an edge switch installed in your entertainment center sounds pretty damned attractive. If you want to future proof it, leave provisions for MM fiber or CAT6a to support 10gb trunking.
     
  9. chip

    chip Member

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    out of interest, can you share some details on how you achieved this? (ie the radios, the client devices, and the geometry of the situation)
     
  10. sTeeLzor

    sTeeLzor Member

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    Nothing super special

    https://imgur.com/a/F6RoAMS
    Floorplan with Asus RT-AC68U in the Study. Just works for 1080P wireless streaming in MasterBed and Bed3/4. Clients are either my Xbox or my Phones/Tablets.

    Yes. They dont have a vested interest in making you think you need more Access Points...
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  11. darknebula

    darknebula Member

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    What speed are you getting over WiFi at the router and then in those rooms
     
  12. sTeeLzor

    sTeeLzor Member

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    Enough to stream 1080P video? So more than 20mbps?
     
  13. Gunna

    Gunna Member

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    I get consistent 30Mbps in the house. My AP is old so doesn't support 802911.n so that's all I can get. Might upgrade soon
     
  14. Symon

    Symon Castigat ridendo mores

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    We are looking to build in Brisbane in the next couple of years - PM the builders details so I know who to steer clear of.

    I think there are too many variables to make such a claim - I have a double brick house and it does a pretty good job of blocking my Wifi, especially the 5GHz channels.

    Only things I have on wireless are phones, laptops and tablets. If it doesn't move then it is plugged into a hardwired port. Just finished running fibre from my rack to the office for 10G as well.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  15. sTeeLzor

    sTeeLzor Member

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    Brick is brick. Your interior walls generally arent double brick. 5GHz drops off over distance more than 2.4G anyway and thats why we still have both bandwidths available.

    At the end of the day, its up to everyone to determine their use cases. I dont value hardwiring anything that wont end up using the bandwidth or be used at all. I dont value 10G in a residential space. I am sure you have some real obscure use case thats absolutely critical to you for that 10G need, but I just could never find one for me.

    Theres more to designing a system than ideal performance. Cost and value should always be a consideration.
     
  16. darknebula

    darknebula Member

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    Just did a quick walk around the house and am getting a solid 190-200Mbit/s throughput in all rooms of the house. This wasn't by accident though and by just guessing where i thought i needed an AP or 2. It was simulated first using software which takes into consideration the building materials in the house. Then a validation survey was done by placing AP's where the software had suggested and then lastly installing them correctly.

    I still think you should hire a pro to do your wifi. They will have access to software to plan your network out based on your requirements and will know how many AP's and of what type will best suit you.
     
  17. Symon

    Symon Castigat ridendo mores

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    Amatuer photographers doing editing off a NAS. Not that obscure a use case. 10G is reasonably cheap now, as is the fibre.

    And as far as wifi goes, not all brick is the same. Thickness, composition, moisture content, core filling etc all play a part.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  18. darknebula

    darknebula Member

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    Here is an example of how you never know when the extra cabling will come in handy.

    I was playing Forza Horizon 4 on the Xbox in the Home Cinema where we have a 120" screen and projector and i was thinking to myself it would be nice to play the PC version on the big screen, then i realised i had cabling and just had to purchase some HDMI over Cat6 adaptors and i could...
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  19. Copie

    Copie Member

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    Just get them to run conduit with pull string inside, with 30mm conduit you will get 4 cables through no problem. Its what i would be doing for homes where they want to charge you a fortune for changes
     
  20. Copie

    Copie Member

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    33 here. 11 for cameras, the rest are in various rooms. 2 at every tv point, 6 where the office desk is located, 6 behind the lounge tv, 2 next to the couch etc. 50% are used all the time. My only regret was not putting in more behind the lounge tv. By the time you have the PS4, AV reciever (as it hasnt got wifi) shield TV, Foxtel Box and Oppo BR player (shit wifi)
     

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