[WIN10] Windows 10 Mega thread

Discussion in 'Windows Operating Systems' started by MR CHILLED, Jan 15, 2014.

  1. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    35,411
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I'm not even sure it's the price. What it sounds like is you don't want to be screwed around. You either pay a second time for something you already bought and shouldn't have to re-buy, or have to waste your time trying to prove you're not a thief. Either way, it's your inconvenience and time or dollar cost to do something you shouldn't have to do. For all the arguments that it's "only $145 averaged out over a year", the real issue is that you shouldn't have to waste your resources to prove you're not a dirty pirate when there was no cause for such an accusation in the first place.

    Imagine that happened anywhere else. Imagine a Coles employee rocked up at your house randomly, and demanded you to prove you bought all the groceries in your fridge - or worse, made you pay for any groceries they couldn't properly identify in your fridge, or pay for all your groceries twice because you bought a new fridge. In any other market, you'd tell the vendor to get fucked and switch. Why is software any different?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
    flu!d and Ratzz like this.
  2. millsy_c

    millsy_c Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    12,555
    Location:
    Brisbane
    To be fair, if you buy OEM licenses it's pretty clear what that entails in terms of your license.

    It's a shit setup though.
     
  3. Ratzz

    Ratzz Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2013
    Messages:
    7,793
    Location:
    Cheltenham East 3192
    You are quite correct. I've worded it badly. I already own Windows. I'm buying a new motherboard. Because I've done so a million times before, and moved the license across to other motherboards, and because I am giving my old, licensed motherboard to my wife, and potentially discarding HER old, licensed, motherboard, they'll just make me jump too many hoops to activate a new one.

    I don't mind Win10, but in the end, I'm not THAT attached to it that I wish to keep being in the centre ring of the circus. No hoops to be jumped to move to Linux, which has advantages and disadvantages from my POV, so all things being equal.. Linux it is.
     
  4. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    35,411
    Location:
    Brisbane
    My point is not what the license is today. My point is how everyone let it get to this ludicrous point with no fight.

    If people had to re-buy their phone apps every time they upgraded their phones, there'd be rioting in the streets, regardless of how clear the licensing terms were.

    Y'all need to stand up for yourselves. Maybe it's just my Protestant/European roots coming through, but fuck the establishment. Power to the people.
     
    flu!d likes this.
  5. PersianImmortal

    PersianImmortal Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    8,890
    Location:
    Canberra
    elvis, stop! Don't you know about the Intel Management Engine and Trustzone co-processors on Intel and AMD CPUs that spy on us? Do you really want the NSA to hear this? Dear establishment, he didn't mean that.

    Witty banter aside, I am pretty much diametrically opposed to the notion of power to the people. You're better off giving a gun to a baby. I'm for power to the right people, a meritocracy. All of the major revolutions that have given "power to the people" have proven disastrous - the two examples that readily come to my mind right now are the election of one Donald Trump, and the Iranian Revolution in my native country. Both countries were experiencing prosperity, peace and social improvement, when they were subverted into utter chaos by the banal selfish stupidity of the "ordinary person".

    I know, I'm a terrible person. But I have zero faith in the average numpty. Remember, these are the same people who put their own children at risk because of unsubstantiated anti-vax crap on YouTube and Facebook.

    I certainly do have a fear of the unknown. As the famous philosopher K. Minogue once said "better the devil you know".

    Rather than providing lots of examples that will make me sound like a complete wanker, I'll just make a general statement that merely gives the impression that I'm a low-level tosser: I feel extremely confident using Windows. I can even come up with novel, original solutions to problems, or ways to optimize the OS that others may not be familiar with. I will lose all that going to Linux. It's like going from Primary School to High School, you're at the top of your pile, then you become the low man again.
     
    elvis likes this.
  6. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    35,411
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Ditto. And there is no greater meritocracy than open source. Poor projects die, and only those with merit survive.

    When everything is free and transparent, and there's no singularly controlling commercial interest (lots of highly paid, high merit individuals from different companies, mind you, but all keeping each other honest), only the best software rated on pure merit survives. There are 27 million projects on GitHub. Most of them complete shit. Only the good stuff is the stuff you bother using.

    Alternatively, give your power to the corporate oligopoly and trust in them completely and absolutely to make the right decisions. That's what got us Windows 10 and macOS. Right now, they're the very best on offer for our hard earned dollars and trust. How's that working out for us all?

    Consider that Microsoft turned to open source to drive the network layer of their Azure cloud services. Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook, Twitter and countless others built their entire combined cloud businesses off open source. Do you think it's co-incidence that they use open source where it absolutely matters to issues of reliability and security, while they all pedal their substandard crap to the rest of us?

    It seems open source has the merit to be used by the very people trying to force us to buy their ad-laden, privacy-destroying, untrustworthy, stupidly licensed junk.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
    PersianImmortal and flu!d like this.
  7. PsydFX

    PsydFX Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,369
    But they’re smart people, tasked with making point and click platforms for regular people.
     
    PersianImmortal likes this.
  8. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    35,411
    Location:
    Brisbane
    They're smart people, tasked with extracting the maximum amount of money from you for their shareholders as a priority. You are just the cash cow, and they'll continue pushing things to the absolute limit of what the you and the rest of the market will accept.

    So far the advertising and telemetry embedded in Windows 10 wasn't enough to send people running in droves. That's great news for shareholders! Keep that up for a while, and push more ads slowly over time, keep collecting (and selling) data over time, slowly increasing profits. The customer base is nice and complacent, and will happily take the changes as long as they're slow enough.

    If the same level of junk appeared in Windows 2000 as appeared in Windows 10, that would have been Microsoft's overnight demise. The only factor there was time, and people putting up with gradual change. The same can be said of social media giants like Facebook. If they pulled the same crap they're pulling in 2019 back in 2006, there'd be no Facebook today. Gradual change and complacency of the customer base allowed it to happen.

    I read a statistic which, hand on heart, I have no way of verifying at all. So with a grain of salt I repeat it here - it said that 80% of the best and brightest minds in Silicon Valley are paid to deliver ads to your eyes or ears (either directly, or indirectly through larger company objectives). When you consider not only the combined human effort but the sheer dollar value behind that (assuming it's true, or even half true), that's quite frightening.

    Whether you care globally for the good of mankind, or selfishly for your own personal privacy and desktop user experience, neither situation is improving.

    Make your choice. Keep funding the gradual change for the worse, or opt out. But don't kid yourself - you are choosing one way or the other.
     
    flu!d likes this.
  9. Ratzz

    Ratzz Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2013
    Messages:
    7,793
    Location:
    Cheltenham East 3192
    And there is a place for that.

    Plenty of 'regular people' in this world. The kind who own a tablet, laptop or cheap desktop for facebook and care nothing about the OS other than it is easy for them to navigate to the small portion of it that they need.

    Even gamers who only care that it can run a million fps at high res, without actually caring how. How many console gamers could even tell you what the underlying OS of their particular console is? I'm guessing X-Box users might have a clue that their machine has 'something' to do with Microsoft.. but the others?

    The people on this site are hardly representative of mainstream computer users. Say 'Linux' and they will look at you blankly thinking its either some kind of disease or a technical term used by computer experts. The kind of people who ask you if you can fix computers and tell you they will bring their hard drive around for you to have a look at.

    These people are the market for Windows and IOS. We are just people who may or may not also use them, but we are inconsequential when it comes to their commercial success. All you need to do to be a computer 'expert' these days is to understand the OS and hardware you are purporting to be an expert on, and how to use, modify and diagnose it without destroying it... in the eyes of the 'regular' people.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  10. PersianImmortal

    PersianImmortal Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    8,890
    Location:
    Canberra
    Whoa, this is quite a jump! First we're giving power to the people, then everything is becoming free and transparent? I'm not being facetious when I ask how this is going to work - what's generating the revenue?

    I agree that really good software can be catapulted to prominence based on merit, but ultimately, even the best software and services can die off for lack of funds. For example, how many people are using the free ClassicShell Start Menu replacement utility for Windows 8/10? I'd say millions. Yet the developer just hung up his hat not too long ago. If you read between the lines, it's fairly clear that income was a major factor (he says it's not) - no-one would be citing "lack of free time" as a reason for walking away from a multi-million dollar piece of software for example. I have some experience in this, having once had a huge audience for my guides, while at the same time literally going broke.

    I'll be honest and say it's not working out that badly, in terms of features and functionality. Greed is still a great motivator for innovation.

    I can't speak for MacOS, but Windows 10's problems all flow back to the same issue further above: generating revenue. This is why I'm skeptical about open source. I like open source software in terms of transparency, as well as the general level of care and dedication in the community. What I don't like is the misconceptions regarding successful open source projects - Firefox is a great example. Most people don't know that Google bankrolls Firefox. Linux is another example: it only "succeeds" because the major players use Linux servers (See below).

    Basically, the problem with open source is that it's great, as long as there's a sugar daddy of some kind to support it. So we're kinda back to square one.

    Unfortunately, this can be quite easily characterized as some people being silly enough to release their hard work for free, while other, less scrupulous individuals, use that to generate a profit for themselves. Note that I don't agree with this simplistic characterization, but we live in a post-Trump world where this is how it's seen by the "alphas".
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    35,411
    Location:
    Brisbane
    You're kidding right? Open source is a multi-trillion dollar industry right here, right now.

    Take me, for example. I specialise in open source, and command double the national average salary in my field for my work. The demand for my skills is enormous (I'm approached several times per month with job offers to work on open source software). And that's in Australia, where open source is embarrassingly misunderstood by most compared to the US and EU where it's booming, and I could double my income again.

    Or take Google and Amazon. Software giants responsible for some of the richest people in the western hemisphere, all built from free (as in speech, not free as in beer) software.

    Software is not like tables and chairs. It's not a thing you build and sell and never touch again. It's a living, breathing beast that never stagnates, and requires maintenance and effort and changes every day to meet the needs of the people who use it. When you think of software not like a product (because it isn't), and more like a service (because it is), then the economics of it make sense.

    The rest of your post runs with your incorrect assumption that, without selling things on a item-by-item basis, there is no revenue generation ability. There's no point picking it all apart, because the assumption itself is wrong, thus are your conclusions. Take a look at some of the biggest companies in the tech sector today, and ask yourself what they run behind the scenes to deliver their services. Whether it's a tech company directly like IBM, Google or Amazon, or a tech company indirectly like Marvel/Disney, Netflix and Uber. Dig deep into their systems and infrastructure, look at what they're paying people to do so that they can deliver their services, and you'll quickly understand why there's so much money in free software.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  12. shredder

    shredder Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2001
    Messages:
    10,932
    Location:
    Dec 27, 1991
    I totally get it, I've been there. I can't argue the relevance of your tasks, not knowing them. But you will probably find that a significant maintenance and tweaking overhead will simply cease to exist once you're gone from Windows, and you'll be able to turn that time to more constructive tasks. That whole world of malware and Defender and win-updates and registry and all the related vajazzle, just "see ya later", amongst a host of other things that you only eventually notice by their omission.

    I mean, we all know analogies are selective, but let me just say that a "high school to uni" comparison would be better suited. Sure you might be going back to Greenhorn status, but you're a Greenhorn in a hugely liberated, exciting and fun world.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  13. millsy_c

    millsy_c Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    12,555
    Location:
    Brisbane
    People will use the best fit thing that generates the least amount of friction to implement, regardless of how crazy it may seem at face value (see, SAP, Office, Windows).

    Windows 10 is a marked difference in MS's approach, and it's a concerning precedent that we've slowly worked our way toward, just like for example facebook now offering to suggest names for faces in your photos. Started with adding photos, then tagging friends in photos, this seems a natural evolution. But it's a fucking scary one that most people don't consider the 'why' or 'how' it's working in the backend.
     
  14. PersianImmortal

    PersianImmortal Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    8,890
    Location:
    Canberra
    Yes, but who's paying your salary, and the salaries of the others who create and maintain this software? Aren't they functioning on the very principles you say you dislike (i.e., modern commercialism).

    What I'm saying is follow the money. Ultimately, isn't it coming from the same source? Advertising, selling stuff people don't really need for lots of dollars, wasteful and polluting enterprises, etc.

    This is a valid point, and for people wonder why I have an iPhone, this is the very reason. I get so tired of micro-managing my PC, that I'm glad for the relief that using my iPhone brings. It really does "just work" for my purposes.

    But unfortunately this is where I think the validity of your point falls apart. I'm not sure why using Linux is more liberating, in terms of the experience. Perhaps you could elaborate? I get that it may require less effort in some ways, but surely it requires more effort in others. You can't argue that using Bash is better than using Windows Update or a point-and-click GUI, then suggest that it's also less effort as per your previous claim :)

    And for that effort, what precisely am I getting in return, in terms of additional functionality? Will my system do things faster? Will I get new features out of my CPU or drives that I couldn't access in Windows?
     
  15. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    35,411
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Modern commercialism is not why I dislike Windows. I think you're confusing a few different messages here.

    Windows continues to embed more and more privacy-destroying measures into its OS with every release. I'm not on board with this. Its licensing model has also accused innocent customers of being software pirates for decades, and forces them to take measures to disprove this. "Guilty until proven innocent". I'm not on board with this either.

    I accept the requirement of money to live in a capitalist society. And Microsoft are more than welcome to set whatever price they want for their products and services. But the two features I detail above are outside of the scope of "pay for a thing, use a thing". They're now spying on their customers and have, for quite some time, constantly accused them all of theft. That's not cool.

    I could happily accept a closed source, proprietary, desktop operating system that offers a free choice of hardware platform and doesn't do these two evil things I document here. But there isn't one that exists. I don't encourage open source for the price. I encourage it to keep the bastards honest.

    Likewise, I encourage companies to charge for open source (although I encourage them to charge for services, not products, as it motivates employees at all levels to offer better service). The money side of things isn't where my beef is. By all means, earn a living, revel in commercial success. It's how the company treats their customer that is my concern.

    Microsoft treats you like a total arsehole. And you lap it up. If any other company in any other market treated you the same, you'd switch. If your ISP or grocery or car dealership all spied on you and demanded you prove you didn't steal from them constantly, you'd tell them to fuck right off. But, as I detailed above, Microsoft manage to continue to behave the way they do simply because people are too afraid to change vendors. That's a choice you make as a customer, and one you yourself admitted to openly just a few posts above. You've made your compromise, and you've admitted to the downsides of it. All of that is fine and dandy. But alternatives exist, are commercially viable, and don't have to treat their customer bases like total arseholes to survive.

    I say again: make your choice, live with the outcome. This thread, like the other few threads around Windows 10, are littered with long term Windows users complaining about how they're being treated. Complaining won't solve a damned thing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  16. Bold Eagle

    Bold Eagle Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    8,289
    Location:
    Brisbane
    What if the majority of all hardware we buy now has backdoors inbuilt, which it does. What OS and or software apps your using is going to be irrelevant at 'the state level' if they want your DATA they have full unfettered access (whether it is China, Russia, USA, etc);
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_backdoor
    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/17/...s-in-foreign-networks-security-firm-says.html
    https://www.cnet.com/news/nsa-reportedly-installing-spyware-on-us-made-hardware/
    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/04/chi...denies-the-bloomberg-businessweek-report.html
    https://www.smh.com.au/technology/f...ware-found-in-us-telecom-20181010-p508q2.html
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...ny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies

    That is without even trying.

    The greatest problem is no one country is making each and every component that goes into that hardware anymore in a 'highly secure and sanitised environment' which then only has that own countries code being executed on those devices that only operate on their networks. The only examples where this maybe occurring are in military grade hardware made by the superpowers that are on closed networks with every aspect of that hardware's component's origin (the entire network) clearly known.

    The hardware is exploited with spyware and then the code being run is also exploiting the device's user activities as well.
     
  17. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    35,411
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I don't subscribe to the "fuck it, it's all hopeless" position. We got here by complacency, and even more complacency won't solve it.

    (And, FWIW, there are still hold-out hardware manufacturers willing to sell you privacy focused hardware. But you have to care to go out of your way to find them.)
     
    millsy_c likes this.
  18. Bold Eagle

    Bold Eagle Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    8,289
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Don't get me wrong I don't have that "fuck it, it's all hopeless" position, I am a realist and just pointing out if they want your DATA they can get it unless you have isolated 1980 era equipment and never access a network/ed device via that unit.

    To imply one OS is safer than another is a fallacy when access can be attained at the hardware level and something I expect to hear from Apple users who seem to live in a bubble.

    If any hardware is networked or can be accessed via remote connection they can get to your DATA irrespective of OS and apps utilised via the weakest point in that network, you can reduce the likelihod and significantly increase the sophistication needed but they can get to it if they want to.

    Maintaining personal privacy to non-state actors (and or non-sponsored state actors) can arguably be managed but more via user habit and 'limiting exposure' rather than any OS and or applications.
     
  19. power

    power Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    57,153
    Location:
    brisbane
    rolling back round to W10, has anyone else been finding lately that you do a W10 upgrade on say a laptop (i've been doing a few with older machines just in my spare time) and the installer will say oooh such and such isn't compatible, then you finish the install and a driver for said incompatible hw just downloads and installs.

    my 1809 stick is going well to so far i've done 5 or 6 machines not a single one has failed to install and activate coming from 7.
     
  20. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    35,411
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I don't agree at all. And this is absolutely complacency to the current issues of what the OS manufacturers are doing.

    Carefully choosing your OS, on principle, still matters. And for all the reasons I've already detailed in this thread that don't need repeating.
     

Share This Page