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Windows 11 Mega thread

Discussion in 'Windows Operating Systems' started by the_antipop, Jun 16, 2021.

  1. randomman

    randomman Member

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    Enterprise shitware. :lol:

    I wouldn't be surprised if come 2025 they extend Windows 10 support for Enterprise or have some kind of shielded legacy emulation in Windows 11.
     
  2. MR CHILLED

    MR CHILLED D'oh!

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    And this is why essentially it will never change. You will always need a way to navigate/open files (start menu), you will always need a way to quick access open files (task bar), you will always need a way to access background tasks, there will always be icons, and you will always need a pointer to tell the OS what to action. These are some of the basic non negotiables that will basically always have to exist in one form or another. But I think how you organise those things is what defines the usability and the user experience. Intuitive design is an art.
     
  3. elvis

    elvis OCAU's most famous and arrogant know-it-all

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    No such thing. We are born into this world knowing how to breath, eat, sleep and defecate, and the rest is learned.

    People forget there was a time before they learned computers and GUIs, and likewise that they have 20 years of experience learning how to navigate them.

    I've made a career out of training people how to do weird things on computers. Mac users who call Windows unintuitive. Windows users who call Mac unintuitive. Linux users who hate everyone and everything. They're all wrong - it's all learned, nothing is intuitive, and you have to keep learning until the day you die.

    Anyone claiming anything else is selling something.
     
  4. wwwww

    wwwww Member

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    Intuitive doesn't mean you are able to use it from birth. It can involve prior knowledge. The intuition Mr Chilled is referring to is clearly that built up by using previous versions of the OS, not something you're born with.
     
  5. elvis

    elvis OCAU's most famous and arrogant know-it-all

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    The "intuition" designers seek is in real world metaphors. "Desktop", "file", etc - all things we liken to physical objects.

    My point above was that arguments over "intuitive" design always fall back to biased intuition. i.e.: the personal experience of 20+ years of computing familiarity compared to someone who has never touched that system.

    Again, if you've ever had the pleasure of teaching Mac users Windows, Windows users Mac, or anyone Linux, you'll see not only how quickly "intuition" falls apart, but also how it's a completely unnecessary ball and chain that software developers need to shed.

    The simplest relevant example is the modern smart phone. While corporates everywhere struggle with incompetent users who refuse to learn new things, mobile manufacturers came from nowhere with an interface nothing like Windows to dominate sales. We saw almost overnight that, when people want something bad enough, they're more than willing to throw "intuition" out the door and learn a new thing.

    Microsoft's (or anyone's) "need" to stick with a familiar "legacy" desktop design is a noose of their own making.

    Let's take a few "non negotiables" from the above post:

    I'm working with several businesses now where we're rolling out tools to users where NONE of this exists. No files, no background tasks, no start menu. And the reason we're getting rid of these is because they're legacy ways of creating and storing information in a highly dynamic, highly connected world.

    For these businesses, if you're opening, editing and saving files, you're doing it wrong. In fact, we're going as far as putting it in their IT and security policies specifically to avoid this, and push them instead to much more modern tools. If staff have put something in a file, it's already out of date, and they've already created a security risk. That's previous century thinking, and the "intuition" around it has now become handcuffs for businesses who can't break away from it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
    power likes this.
  6. power

    power Member

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    some truth bombs here, the people you run into today who doggedly stick to their iphone because it's "easy" are the same people that used Nokia 3310's yesterday for the exact same reason and the two could not be further apart.

    unless something is deliberately obtuse most thingses are designed well enough for anyone to learn in short order when they want to.
     
    CAPT-Irrelevant likes this.
  7. 151528

    151528 Member

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    I'm disappointed half the menus from 10 are still the same... absolutely horrid waste of space... display settings etc
     
    v81 likes this.
  8. wwwww

    wwwww Member

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    Of course it's biased, it's biased towards your target audience and for an OS refresh, your target audience are largely users of previous versions which is what I think MrChilled is talking about.

    Which are non-negotiables for a user upgrading from Windows 10.
     
  9. elvis

    elvis OCAU's most famous and arrogant know-it-all

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    And what if those users want to move forward with the rest of the world, and do new things in new ways? Are they just forever stuck in their old ways?

    If "largely previous audience" was always the target market, we never would have migrated away from DOS. Change is the only constant.

    "Upgrade" by definition requires change. You can't "upgrade" from Windows 10 and still have the same identical Windows 10.

    All of the discussion here illustrates exactly the problem - people fear change, and Microsoft's biggest challenge is its legacy user base holding progress back, which loses Microsoft the ability to capture new and emerging markets of today that will turn into the mainstream of tomorrow.

    I'm an old fart. I remember learning "WordPerfect for DOS" in high school, and I told my teachers they should drop it and instead teach the new "Microsoft Word" for Windows 3.1. My teachers responded by saying that "Nobody uses MS Word, nor Windows, in business, so we won't teach it". That was the same lack of foresight that modern Windows users face every time upgrades come down the pipeline, and they baulk at the change.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
  10. wwwww

    wwwww Member

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    As I said, you design products for your target users. If your target users want to move forward then you design your products for that. This really shouldn't be that difficult to understand.
     
    MR CHILLED likes this.
  11. elvis

    elvis OCAU's most famous and arrogant know-it-all

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    This is begging the question. A circular argument of claiming users don't want to move forwards because the tools don't move forwards because users don't want to move forwards.

    if I had to choose between who knows Microsoft's customers better - you or Microsoft, I'd got with Microsoft. And in the same breath, I chuckle as I read through the Windows 10 threads here on OCAU with a handful of niche-but-vocal OCAUers complaining that Microsoft is going to hell in a handbasket because of incremental, generational changes to Windows are signalling the end of days.

    Windows is changing. Windows will continue to change. Legacy users and legacy requirements will get left behind. I see it every day as outdated businesses fail to move forward and follow the path set by more nimble, more modern business, who are now very much Microsoft's "target users".
     
  12. wwwww

    wwwww Member

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    No it's not, you're just applying your own binary interpretation of it. Wanting a few familiar features to remain does not mean wanting nothing to change.
     
    v81, GDavid and MR CHILLED like this.
  13. Luke212

    Luke212 Member

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    still need IE (and java) to access my HP C7000 gui
     
  14. elvis

    elvis OCAU's most famous and arrogant know-it-all

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    Delicious irony is delicious. Enjoy your WordPerfect for DOS. :)
     
  15. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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  16. MR CHILLED

    MR CHILLED D'oh!

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  17. Sipheren

    Sipheren Member

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    Yeah, I did see that, don't really want to have to re-install it lol

    No one would be implementing anything that needs it, but most business have many, many legacy systems that require it, we use a few and the dev work required to move away would be in the millions of dollars (due to just how integrated the system that uses it is to an array of other systems) so not going to happen just yet unfortunately. So that means it's up to us to make it work under Edge with emulation mode.
     
  18. Sipheren

    Sipheren Member

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    JSmithDTV likes this.
  19. luke o

    luke o Member

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    Linus did his thing with Win11:
     
  20. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    You work for a dead company, designing software for users rather than for a business requirement is slow painful death by 1000 cuts. Small software companies who always chase the $ rather than the market get side tracked by 1 or 2 large customers and end up building software that is only relevant to those customers and not the market. Then when the cash cow customer moves on to another platform or consumed by a bigger player and forced to adopt their internal systems, leaves the software company with no market for the software.
     

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