Windows 11

Discussion in 'Windows Operating Systems' started by the_antipop, Jun 16, 2021.

  1. 151528

    151528 Member

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    How many people here use android phones? Do the writers of that verge article use iphones or android devices? You know they both come with a default browser made by the same company as the OS right?

    I really don't understand why people have a problem with this?

    We've come far since that original lawsuit and we have shown we don't want choice we want everything setup ready to go out of the box, the few who do want choice are informed enough to make the changes they need to...
     
  2. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    So US corporatism makes everything OK? Because as Elvis stated, we all know just why these tech companies are pushing their own browsers so heavily into the consumer that ignorantly believes they have nothing to hide.

    I love Windows, it makes me a living. I don't personally use Windows for good reason.
     
  3. 151528

    151528 Member

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    I didn't say it makes everything ok, I just don't see that change as an issue, you still have choice and data harvesting hasn't changed because of it

    If microsoft wasn't getting those ignorant users info it would have just been google instead
     
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  4. Audionut

    Audionut Member

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    Everything on the internet wants your shit. Corps pushing a particular browser is the least of the problem.

    People who are tech savy enough to take reasonable steps to protect what little privacy is left on the internet, can also change the default browser.

    mountain-or-molehill.jpg
     
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  5. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    No operating system should spy on it's users, none. Even Android doesn't spy on it's users, Gapps does. Android runs fine without Gapps installed.

    I can opt out of social media, I can take precautions to protect my privacy on the internet enough to make it difficult to obtain my personal metadata, I can use Duck Duck Go. But when there is spying at OS level that's literally impossible to circumvent, and is becoming harder and harder to avoid with every update - That's where I draw the line. Furthermore, it was never stated you can't change the default browser.

    So I'll take on that mountain.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  6. JSmithDTV

    JSmithDTV Member

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  7. 151528

    151528 Member

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    I'm not disagreeing data harvesting is an issue, I was merely commenting on the negative feedback regarding microsofts changes to browser defaults, which are minor, and don't stop you changing your default browser anyway, it just adds extra steps, and arguably, makes it easier to change defaults for web browsing while using another browser for different files. That is what was being referred to as a mountain out of a molehill, not data harvesting as a whole :thumbup:

    As for android, what android phones can you buy that don't have the google apps locked into the device, without requiring serious modification to remove them? Is this not something else that is beyond the scope of the average user, thereby 'encouraging' them to just use the defaults?
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  8. Audionut

    Audionut Member

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    We can't have any sort of reasonable discussion, if one minute the response is in regards to point of view of an innocent "average user" (who apparently, by your definition, can't install a third party PDF viewer), and the next minute there's discussion about running android without gapps.

    I'll happily bash the shit out of M$ if you wanna keep the goal posts in the same post code.
     
  9. OJR

    OJR Member

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    Welcome to OCAU. Enjoy your stay.
     
  10. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    I never said the average user can't install a third party PDF reader, I think you need to actually read back another page and grasp the context of my reply. Furthermore, when you install Adobe Reader, there is no option as part of the installer to make it the default application regarding .PDF file opening. Edge therefore remains the default choice even after you installed Adobe Reader.

    Once again, you're taking things out of context. I'm talking about Edge being the default viewer for .PDF files and the fact that the option to change from Edge as the default viewer is buried in Windows settings, the average user has no idea where it is, and this is no mistake on behalf of Microsoft. Especially when Windows 7 never did such a thing, and especially when it screws with the opening of .PDF files under Outlook.

    Read people.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    People have different software requirements, which is why there's more than one version of almost all software. Shocking, I know.

    Criticising people for wanting privacy is a bit silly.

    I much prefer the objective approach. Don't care about privacy? Cool, here's three massive vendors who are super convenient. Do care about privacy? Step this way and let me show you both open source goodness, and some not-too-bad vendors like ProtonMail.

    Thank goodness for choice and options.

    What does annoy me, though, are the folks who simultaneously want to stick with the big privacy-busting vendors, but want privacy. It's that lot who have to "shit or get off the pot". Make the choice - opt in, or opt out. If you do like and want pricacy, back the vendors and software that prioritise that. But those big vendors aren't going to suddenly be nice and change their tune overnight because we complained on a forum.

    Taste and design happened.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  12. 151528

    151528 Member

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    I'm not criticising anyone for wanting privacy, I have stated the exact opposite, I haven't said choice is a bad thing either, you're putting words in my mouth to once again try and be the high allmighty mr objective, it's tiresome. Despite what the minority wants, money talks and the average user will spend their money regardless.

    All I've pointed out is MS are far from the only one doing this sort of thing, people have continued their buying trends that support a more streamlined user experience out of the box with no concern for how far away options are buried, so why is this one any different? Those of us who wish to change it can still do so, just like the vast majority of other things in both windows and other operating systems that are hard for the average user to change (let alone know that they can) but can be changed nonetheless with a little bit of knowhow/motivation

    nice of you to spell out what I was saying though



    Also flu!d, forgive me, I assumed the pdf chat was a subset of the browser changes. I personally don't think any average user would have a problem with edge being the default pdf viewer despite it being slightly harder to change in 11, it's quite competent and a nice change from the windows 7 days of the average user fumbling with adobe and hiding the update window every launch
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  13. Audionut

    Audionut Member

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    adobe.PNG

    Furthermore, if someone is so distraught with viewing a PDF inside of edge, they will look for opportunity to change this. I have no doubt there will be a plethora of search results explaining to the "average user (who doesn't want to use edge to view PDF)" how shit their OS is, and step by step how to change the default PDF viewer. Although, as I've already pointed out, every single app will want to be a users default app, and kindly ask the user to set it as the default app.

    If a user can't do a simple search and follow simple instructions, average or not, then they're shit out of luck, because they sure as shit won't be playing in linux land.

    p.s. one would hope that the average user chooses one of the various free options to view PDF's from the M$ store, because adobe installs a bunch of other shit without seeking consent first. And you wanna bitch about M$ while using adobe as an example ffs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  14. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Huh? I am? I didn't even realise we'd spoken before.

    No disagreement from me. But two wrongs don't make a right, and because other vendors are shitty doesn't make Microsoft less shitty.

    It isn't different. Microsoft do a shitty job of privacy. That's the statement. Yes, so do Apple/Amazon/Google/etc. That doesn't absolve Microsoft.

    Thankfully we still do have some privacy focussed vendors still. So hooray for choice.

    This I certainly agree with. It's no secret that Microsoft have done a shitty job of privacy for decades. If people are only starting to realise this in Windows 11, I don't have a lot of sympathy.

    For those who don't care about privacy, by all means carry on. That's their choice. These sorts of vendors certainly aren't going to vanish overnight. It's quite clear that the vast majority of people simply don't care about privacy.

    If folks do care about privacy, then it's time to change, not time to whine about Windows 11.
     
  15. 151528

    151528 Member

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    EDIT:

    I didn't start so well in that previous post, I'll try with less vitriol

    The words "once again" were referring to other posts I've seen by you in a similar vein, where you've stepped in to partially quote someone and critique the out of context statement, then go on to rephrase what they have previously said while throwing in a bit of explicit anti MS/pro linux to the mix

    And I feel you've done exactly that again here, along with a condescending multi reply implying more things I have not said, ie MS being less shitty than others



    That said, I'll try the flog it like a dead horse approach too...


    Microsoft are just doing what everyone else is doing, a streamlined experience for the average user who cares not for customisation, the data harvesting is happening either way and is shit, but joe blow has shown he doesn't care

    Maybe now people will hear what I've said :tongue:
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
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  16. Audionut

    Audionut Member

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    To busy pushing a narrative from the point of view of a demographic they don't understand.
     
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  17. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    We had a nice conversation about Microsoft going there. Now it's all about me. And as fabulous and interesting as I am, I'm keen to get it back on the thread topic.

    [edit] And old posts are being edited rapidly, so now none of this makes sense. Great. Let's take the opportunity to move on to on-topic discussion.

    I'm particularly interested in the die hard Windows fans who are upset with Windows 11. What's the plan? Turn Win10 into the next WinXP and hold on forever? Scream into the void but then give in and upgrade anyway? Or... *gasp* switch to an alternative?

    Have I missed an option?

    By all means, please explain the demographic of people who are upset with these new Windows 11 changes (there's a few folks in this thread, although they never seen to detail what their plan is moving forward). I'm genuinely keen to know more. And you are right, I don't understand how someone could be OK with Windows this long, and Windows 11 is suddenly the OS that went too far.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  18. 151528

    151528 Member

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    You have made it about you, it's hard for anyone to have a discussion when you come in and say the same thing again and again... yes everyone should move to linux, but not the average user, but MS is very bad and we should stop supporting them, but MS and other products are more and more designed towards the average user who isn't capable/bothered with linux...

    Becomes a catch 22, you try to hold all positions at once so people can't disagree with you, sometimes it's ignored, other times a fish bites (ie me)



    The onus would be on us if we assume there's much of the everyman here on ocau :p



    I don't see why it would really change from the trajectory we have now honestly, people will continue to use older versions of windows for older games, and the remainder will use the flavour of the day despite its shortcomings/compromises, because the everyman pc gamer wants a computer that's not much more complicated than a console.

    It will be only once they're recommended a youtube video showing them that a flavour of linux is now equally as click and run for their hardware and (entire library of) games will they begin to move over in any real numbers... but that would need to happen before we just stream our OS and games to our pc, by then it will be too late
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  19. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Who said that? I've been quite clear to use the term "alternative", and I genuinely mean it. There are far more choices today than "Windows or Linux".

    Hell, have you seen what you can do on a tablet with a keyboard and mouse in 2021? And with all these cloudy apps, it's even simpler to find an alternative.

    Again, the false dichotomy of "Windows it Linux" isn't the point. Choice is.

    And again, cloud tools mean there are flexible options. Office 365 works pretty well on an iPad (a choice that literally did not exist 10 short years ago). Maybe not an option for everyone, but maybe an option for someone. And no, not even the only option. One of dozens, and merely an example. But choices exist.

    The message is: exercise your choice. That's the important part, and critical to keeping your vendors honest. Not religious dogma over operating systems. And that goes in all directions - dogmatic fans of non-Windows operating systems don't get a free ride here either.

    What is certain is that if the folks in this thread who are upset with the changes coming in Windows 11 simply roll over and upgrade, all of their angst is for naught.

    I roll out all sorts of software for my customers, including software from Microsoft. Every environment I work in is heterogeneous, multi-vendor, multi-OS. And I give the same message to my paying clients: exercise your choice, be flexible, and keep your vendors honest through competition. Vendors don't listen to complaints on a forum. They listen to your last purchase order.

    That's an interesting way to interpret being on the customer's side, no matter who the vendor.

    I'm not pro nor anti Microsoft. How could you be when they're so enormous and make so many products and exist in a market with so many different customers with different needs? What I am is pro-choice, and pro shaking up people's assumptions that they "need" any given vendor.

    Vendors need you way more than you need them. Try threatening one with their competitor's product, and see just how much they'll grovel. It's a lot of fun. :)

    Internationally edited because I want to remove the focus from that other dreaded operating system, and genuinely look to a sea of alternatives.

    Let's change the direction of this conversation to make it more light hearted / positive. Go back though this thread, and you'll see a number of people upset with changes in Windows 11. What's your advice to them? What do you think they should do once Windows 10 goes EOL?

    [Edit]

    Ok this is good stuff. We're getting somewhere.

    I hope that people will care enough, and will change, but fear that you are right and they generally won't bother for the most part.

    Your point on gaming interests me, because I always think that's over emphasised. But if it isn't, and gaming is a critical factor, I'm interested to see where SteamOS on the SteamDeck goes, and what impact that has on all of this, if any.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  20. 151528

    151528 Member

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    Honestly, I don't really know nor did I have the energy to enter into the deeper discussion of what's next if I'm honest, but perhaps more thought vomit will bring some about...

    I am one of the many apathetic users who is so worn out by the many facets of our daily lives beyond computers that are being eroded, that I only do the little of what I know and can be bothered with avoiding or modifying to otherwise maintain the status quo of using systems I am familiar with, and I imagine there's many out there like me. (That said, I still completely avoid some things to my social detriment, unlike many in my demographic)

    But this is why I don't go around complaining about marginal changes to windows, as I see the futility in it if I continue to use it, which rings back to my original entry wondering why changes to default browser settings were a big deal.


    As for moving forward, we're in a space where the giants in the industry are so large they can practically dictate where we go next, and that direction is the cloud, it's been covered in the windows 365 thread I think, that that is quite an obvious step forward and for the majority of users it will probably make their windows experience easier

    I mention gaming because while microsoft are obviously interested in a more consolidated gaming plaform ie the xbox and gamepass, I think they're aware that keeping pc gamers tied with windows is good for them outside of gaming, more gamers using windows means more people familiar with windows, more it admins, more cfos, etc, and these people can impact business decisions of a much larger financial impact for microsoft, so thereby keeping them happier at home, may actually be cheap PR outside of it

    (Just look at how willing many were/are to implement ipads and the like into the workplace, purely because they played with them at home)

    Lighthearted/positive, sure :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021

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