WTF Nintendo?

Discussion in 'Retro & Arcade' started by flu!d, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

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  2. al'Thor

    al'Thor Member

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    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  3. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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  4. hippyhippy

    hippyhippy Member

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    Why the outrage ? Is their property. And they're making a mozza on retro consoles.
     
  5. fredhoon

    fredhoon Member

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    It's certainly their right to enforce their IP but still disappointing without an alternative being available - i.e. official back catalogue & emulators available on multiple platforms. I hope they don't start going after hardware emulators.

    I posted this below in another thread, Nintendo short-sightedly going after retro game bars even though they are using official hardware & games, though still against the personal use licence of consoles. Way to miss an opportunity to grow an emerging market Nintendo.

     
  6. power

    power Member

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    Unlike many companies Nintendo realise how much money can be made from selling games over and over again - they've been doing it for years. Their new online service later this year will be basically peak Nintendo a constant revenue stream from old IP's. I'm shocked it's taken them this long to jump on the rental subscription bandwagon tbh.
     
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  7. alch

    alch Member

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    They, like many who have tried.. can not and will not wipe the internet of ROMs (or movies, or mp3s(flacs))
    Download them while you can though eh? ;p

    ed;
    Also if you soft mod your wii.. You can just copy the ROMs to the sdcard and play the classics... Instead of paying for what you already own on another console :D
     
  8. cdtoaster

    cdtoaster Member

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    well all they sell is the same game over and over again for 40 years now
     
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  9. Grant

    Grant Member

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    I disagree with what Nintendo's doing and wish they were more chill (and I think being chill would be win-win for them), but the huge library of ROMs available for emulators means that a raspberry pi directly competes with their emulator boxes that have a smaller library, which is one rationalisation of why they'd go after ROM sites.
     
  10. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    So I hope everyone's had an opportunity to watch the "Video Game Attorney" interview I posted above. It's fairly integral to what I'm going to say here.

    Firstly, Nintendo aren't wrong. They're well within their rights to protect their IP aggressively. More than that, they should. I know that sounds contrary to what most would expect from me as both a retro gamer and a fan of open source, but Nintendo aren't some fly by night company. They're 128 years old this year (yes, you read that right), and you don't get to that age as a company without (a) making good quality products that sell well, and (b) protecting your investments.

    Commenting directly on this:
    I disagree. Yes, abandonware is definitely a real thing, and a tricky part of digital preservation. Typically it's when a company has either gone bankrupt or been bought out (or both), and the status of their products and licenses is unknown. Often the financial and legal effort required to even find out who owns a license (and to make matters worse, that ownership might be split across different companies in different territories) is huge, and not worth whatever profit could be made from continuing to sell and support the software.

    In Nintendo's case, their products are NOT abandoned. Simply because we don't see the inner workings of Nintendo, it's not correct for us to assume anything. Do a quick Google, and you'll find a handful of reputable journalists in the world have been invited down to Nintendo's bunker under their head office, where they have a complete library of every game and system they've ever developed, complete with stockpiles of hardware to play it on. Nintendo do indeed know the value of their old IP, even if they aren't making the most of it financially.

    Now, before anyone gets upset, I don't like the way Nintendo handle their sales of old games. Yes, I think they're way out of touch, and missing out on enormous revenue. I also think they suffer the same false dichotomy that a lot of companies do when they say that old game sales will "cannibalise" new game sales. I think this is a trivial way to write off how fans think. It's pretty obvious to anyone in this sub-forum that folks like us will happily buy Super Mario Bros. 3 as well as Mario Odyssey, and understand that these are totally different games.

    I also don't like the way Nintendo tie digital downloads to devices. In 2018 we're very used to downloads services that are platform agnostic, and even slow, bloated companies like Sony get that I want to play a digital download on a PS4 today, and a Vita tomorrow, and can deal with that. The "NES Mini" and "SNES Mini" consoles are great, but they don't include the ability for new titles to be added (and I'm keeping discussion about Nintendo-provided options here, not community hacks or "piracy", because that's my focus in this post).

    It's also clear that the Mini consoles were a learning experience for Nintendo. Big-N rarely admits to mistakes (they remind me of Apple in so many ways), but they came out and admitted that the demand for Mini consoles caught them by surprise. I was quite pleased when they announced that, and plans to rectify it by upping production. That humility is a rare side of Nintendo.

    Nintendo have previously announced that the Switch won't be getting a formal "Virtual Console" service like the Wii, WiiU and all 2DS/3DS models had, which I think is a crying shame. It's clear anyone can put any game on the eStore though (and there are plenty of retro titles), so perhaps that was just lost in translation a little, and they merely mean that they won't separate retro content from new content. With that said, the eStore is getting pretty bloated, and some sort of metadata tagging by genre/year would really make things easier to navigate, even though it's not "the Nintendo way".

    But, regardless of any of those gripes, I still support Nintendo's moves to take down ROM hosting sites, purely on a legal basis. Just like I support any other company doing the same to any content they own. Regardless of our passion for old games, no company outside of Nintendo has the right to give away Nintendo software for free. No different to Microsoft, Sony, or any other large software vendor. And it doesn't matter how much we love or loathe those companies, they all fall under the same legal banner when it comes to how they handle copyright.

    In summary, I absolutely believe Nintendo are missing out on revenue by how poorly they're handling their retro fans. But I also 100% support their right to aggressively protect their IP and do everything in their legal power to shut down third parties who illegally distribute their software, regardless of whether it's 40 weeks old or 40 years old.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  11. g12345567

    g12345567 Member

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    Next thing you know they will stop people from selling official used Nintendo games just because they can. In the past they could have stopped places from renting games as they are not making any money from these sales and rentals.

    Do you pirate just because a certain game has never been re-released and probably never will be by Nintendo. Or don't want to spend $1000+ on that ultra rare game you want to play?
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  12. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Please, let's stick with fact and not emotion. Nintendo cannot legally stop second hand sales. Too much legal precedent has been set there in multiple countries, and it would be a waste of money to even try.
     
  13. cdtoaster

    cdtoaster Member

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    didnt Microsoft or sony want to do it with the xbone/ps4 until everyone was outraged?
     
  14. power

    power Member

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    Microsoft wanted always online DRM in the xbox one and removal of the ability for used sales. Wait, they still want it just trying to figure out how to make it palatable - games pass seems to fit the bill.
     
  15. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I know Sony had planned it for the PS3 at least (was going to be a write-once outer later to their media that tied it physically to a single console), but by all accounts they came up against legal issues. That sort of thing would get you banned from sale in Europe and Australia, as we have some of the best consumer rights legislation in the world.

    So the physical sales can't be prevented from resale, but obviously digital can, which seems to say that the collection of ones and zeros that represents a game isn't important, but rather its delivery is. That, I've never understood. But then again, I'm a technical person, and law/legislation makers tend not to be, so I can see how a "CD ROM" vs a "download" confuse them.

    You can't sell off your old Steam games either. Although there's very few games on Steam that drop off the for sale list, so at least there's an easy way to buy them new, unlike physical media that's out of print.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  16. miicah

    miicah Member

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    Can someone confirm that VC titles are locked to the hardware on the 3DS? Saw a comment on reddit last night about this and if it's true, is bloody ridiculous.
     
  17. power

    power Member

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    all VC titles are locked to the platform they are purchased on. There is no cross buy like Playstation (funny how Sony copped all that flack over cross play but no-one calls Nintendo out for this bullshit).
     
  18. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    For the 3DS, yes, I'm pretty sure that's the case. Most annoying is if your 3DS is damaged, you have to re-purchase games.

    [edit] Actually, you can call Nintendo support and have them transfer the ID to a new device. Not easy and dynamic, but enough to save your purchased games if your old device is lost/stolen/destroyed/upgraded:
    https://www.kotaku.com.au/2015/02/salvaging-games-from-a-broken-3ds-is-surprisingly-easy/

    I don't know what the status of the Switch eStore is, given that you now log into that via your Nintendo account.

    [edit] Yes, you can for Switch, but you must set only one console to "active". Once done, you can re-download purchased Switch titles to different hardware:
    https://en-americas-support.nintend...w-to-redownload-nintendo-switch-eshop-content
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  19. WuZMoT

    WuZMoT Member

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    I'm all for preserving gaming history in the form or rom dumps but I also get where nintendo is coming from in this regard. The site visually represented itself as a "trip down nintendo memory lane" while not being presented by Nintendo. That said the visual design of the site and the icons could have been pulled straight out of Sonic and had a relatively similar effect. Perhaps then it would be Sega demanding the money?

    The classic consoles and the virtual console are fantastic but as elvis pointed out they have limited titles and there will always be some titles people want that aren't available. I found the same thing with the PS1 releases on the PSN some time ago - I would happily digitize my entire PS1 CD library via PSN for $5-10 a piece but can't. As elvis also pointed out Nintendo didn't expect the success that they saw with the classic consoles - surely the success of the virtual console on wii would have been a very early indicator...

    This is often due to third party licencing etc. Even Burnout 3/4 are no longer available on xbox live marketplace, presumably due to Music licencing (this is just a guess i haven't researched it but they seemed to disappear around 10 years from original release date - coinciding with the timeframe the old GTA's were 'remastered' and had some music removed). Imagine if these cartridge roms had separate licencing issues due to commercial music licences to complicate things you'd see even less re-releases.

    At the end of the day there will be consumers that buy the current device and are happy to pay $x to play an old classic for nostalgia/convenience and not even question where the 'missing' games are. Then there will be the tech savy that know and want to make their device play whatever they want and are more than happy to spend time figuring out how to make it do it (through illegitimate resources on the internet)

    the targeted websites clearly crossed the line and brought too much publicity by being particularly consumer friendly/accessible. It's hardly comparable to the revolution of P2P but remember how easy Napster made stealing music which in turn encouraged legitimate platforms to obtain digital music as a result.

    Bandwidth for distribution and processing power to reproduce/emulate isn't even an excuse at this point. Nintendo should already have a permanent platform for availability. The classic mini's are a good start but could have had network functionality and allow users to buy additional games beyond the stock load out.

    Even if they had the platform up it would understandably still take time to clear licencing for more content but I feel like they should be closer to Sony at this point with regards to availability and "cross platform" versions bound to an account not a device.
     
  20. power

    power Member

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    Nintendo should do (but won't) offer cross buy like Sony and Microsoft do. Nintendo are too used to re-selling their old shit on every platform they make. I think one exception was one time transfers from Wii to Wii U and physical back compat. Switch is actually a step back because for the first time since the Wii there is no back compat - all they are doing this time is quick ports of Wii U titles at almost full retail.

    Sony do a great job with their commitment to allowing PS1 to be played on all systems excluding the PS4. PS2 to PS3 was good but yeah added too much cost. and cross buy with PS3, Vita and PS4 is great.

    MS do a decent job with back compat XB playable on 360 and now One also back compat from 360 up to One and now cross buy between One and W10.

    Nintendo even used to do better - Gamecube on Wii, Wii on Wii U DS on 3DS etc. Switch is yeah awful for back compat, it's all reselling old games.

    Buy once, play on platform of choice should be the way but Nintendo are regressing and doubling down on their most abhorrent practices.

    The law suit thing, yeah the site deserved it i doubt anyone would disagree - doesn't change the fact they could be and should be doing better for their consumers.
     
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